Prozen cold air intake running rough at high rpms

[coleparson]

Hi Everyone,

 

Just installed the prozen cold air intake and put on a couple hundred miles to let the stock air flow sensor adjust. It's still running rough in the higher rpms. I'll keep putting the throttle down and it will just continue in the same gear and flood the engine. When my foots almost to the floor it will skip a gear and kick right up to about 5k rpm. Is this an issue with the air sensor? Should i unplug my battery and let it recallibrate again. Any feedback would be much appreciated.

 

Thanks

[Mazz]

I'm no expert, but I understand that cold air intakes don't do much for the Edge, and are for the most part, a waste. I think what you are experiencing in part, the reason for the concensus.

[The Outrage]

Here is what I suspect is happening, based on previous tuning experiences: The mass air flow sensor, or other additional intake sensors, are more than likely reading a higher volume of air. To compensate for the increased air volume, additional fuel is being injected by the ECU. This is probably flooding the engine which could manifest itself in the way you describe. One way to determine if this is happening is to record the oxygen sensor readings in order to measure the engine's operating air to fuel ratio.

Edited January 13, 2012 by The Outrage

[flyerjmr33]

Before reading on, check out the edits I made to my earlier post after hearing from Rick at Pro Zen today. He asked me to check the positioning of the MAF sensor making sure the tube is rotated to place the sensor in a "3 o'clock" orientation (parallel to the ground). I'll check it out tomorrow and let you know what I see. I'm traveling on business and have put another 450 miles on the car since my post two days ago. The light hasn't come back on since then.

 

Edited 1/12/12 - 12:44 a.m. (Can't sleep. Hotel bed is too hard :angry: )

 

I meant to include the code numbers I recorded the first time the engine light came on. I borrowed a code reader at my local Advanced Auto Parts store and wrote down a lot of the data. Here are just the "error codes" that I could see:

P2196

O2 Sensor Sig biased / Stuck Rich, Bank 1, Sensor 1. (My handwritten notes were a little hard to read when I got home, so the "Sig" may be a different word/term).

P2198

O2 Sensor Sig biased / Stuck Rich, Bank 2, Sensor 1.

P2196 (had the word "Pending" after it).

P2198 (had the word "Pending" after it).

P2196 (had the word "Permanent" after it).

P2198 (had the word "Permanent" after it).

 

I had never used one of these readers before and the guy at the counter was clueless as well, so I am really not sure what this all means. Any help in making sense of this for me would be appreciated.

 

 

So, so far, it has cost a few bucks to keep you busy--- it must be boring as hell to some when there's nothing but a decent running vehicle to deal with, huh?

[The Outrage]

Before reading on, check out the edits I made to my earlier post after hearing from Rick at Pro Zen today. He asked me to check the positioning of the MAF sensor making sure the tube is rotated to place the sensor in a "3 o'clock" orientation (parallel to the ground). I'll check it out tomorrow and let you know what I see. I'm traveling on business and have put another 450 miles on the car since my post two days ago. The light hasn't come back on since then.

 

Edited 1/12/12 - 12:44 a.m. (Can't sleep. Hotel bed is too hard :angry: )

 

I meant to include the code numbers I recorded the first time the engine light came on. I borrowed a code reader at my local Advanced Auto Parts store and wrote down a lot of the data. Here are just the "error codes" that I could see:

P2196

O2 Sensor Sig biased / Stuck Rich, Bank 1, Sensor 1. (My handwritten notes were a little hard to read when I got home, so the "Sig" may be a different word/term).

P2198

O2 Sensor Sig biased / Stuck Rich, Bank 2, Sensor 1.

P2196 (had the word "Pending" after it).

P2198 (had the word "Pending" after it).

P2196 (had the word "Permanent" after it).

P2198 (had the word "Permanent" after it).

 

I had never used one of these readers before and the guy at the counter was clueless as well, so I am really not sure what this all means. Any help in making sense of this for me would be appreciated.

 

Did it say "Stuck" or "Stoich"? "Stoich" is short for stoichiometric which refers to the air to fuel ratio. Running "rich" refers to a air to fuel ratio which contains too much fuel for the given volume of air. "Lean" would refer to the opposite, too little fuel for the given volume of air. The O2 (oxygen) sensors measure the oxygen content of the exhaust gases. This is used to determine if the engine is running rich or lean.

 

The mass air flow sensor readings determine the amount of fuel which is injected into the engine. Since the intake was modified, and the MAF sensor was repositioned, the MAF readings no longer match the stock intake's typical values. This is causing the ECU to command that additional fuel be added which is making the engine run rich. This can cause stumbling and a lack of power. It can also cause the catalytic converters to become clogged if allowed to continue for an extended period of time.

[akirby]

The Outrage, "stuck rich" was what the readout showed. Greta explanation. I have read posts elsewher on the forum that states the ECU should compensate and formulate the correct mix. But to your knowledge, the ECU is using the OEM air filter as the constant and that the only variables are environment conditions (O2, humidity, etc.). Is that correct?

 

The ECU uses the MAF (mass air flow) sensor to determine how much air is entering the engine and adjusts the fuel accordingly. Therefore it doesn't matter what type of air filter you use - it compensates.

 

What's happening is your MAF readings are different than stock so the ECU thinks you're getting more air than you really are and it's adding to much fuel and the O2 sensor is reading a rich condition.

 

Your MAF sensor is not functioning properly in the new intake.

[Edge_Beast]

Is there a solution available to re-calibrate ECU to allow for the CAI?

 

You would have to hit up a shop that can custom tune the ECU to compensate for the added Air . Wish SCT offered a handeld for the 3.7L

[PhantomX]

So by putting the MAF at the right position did this cure your rough running issues? You did mention the codes were gone but not the rough idle. Also do you have a custom tune yet?

[PhantomX]

The rough idle is stll there, but not as pronounced. More notiable when cold, not as bad as it was when warm. I haven't taken the time to look into having it tuned (I don't think I want to attempt that. Still researching other people's DIY experiences).

 

Any idea as to how much a shop would charge to do a performance tune?

 

Meant to add that I'm going to check with Pro Zen again to see if he has any suggestions on smoothing out the idle. I had a bit of roughness with my 300c CAIs, but not as noticable as with the Edge.

 

Check out my tuning thread, I have 2 custom tunes on the way! Also your LED strips you put in to replace the stockers (the DRL's) were those direct bolt in or did you have to fab up some stuff and rewire to make them work?

 

Thanks!

[c_bova]

after reading through this, I know it's been a month as well, but seeing that you were running rich with this intake and have a rough idle tells me that the maf housing for this intake is probably slightly smaller than the stock intake maf housing. the slightly smaller housing causes you to run rich even though you have put a free-er flowing intake on. reason is for that given voltage the ecu expects a certain amount of airflow, so say if your maf is reading 1.3V, in that section of the table for the MAF it might expect 7grams/second of air. But since the housing is smaller 1.3V might actually only be 5g/s of air but your ecu is injecting enough fuel for 7g/s so this is why you run a little rough and through that CEL of running rich. Now I'm not saying that with the intake you are flowing less air, I'm just saying for any given voltage the ecu is expecting more air then is actually being read by the maf.

 

Now on cars you have what are called fuel trims and as long as you are within a certain range you won't throw a CEL, there are short term (these are corrections the engine is making on the fly) and long term (this is an average of your short term trims). On my mazdaspeed6 it would throw a CEL if your LTFT were +/-25%, meaning it was either pulling or adding 25% fuel. When adding an intake it would be nice to see what your trims are, be it with some kind of data logging tool. Fuel trims are never going to be zero because things such as climate and the gas you put in affect them, but they are there to keep your engine running right.

 

You may have known all this, but I figured I'd share it since I learned a ton about it while tuning my speed6 over the past years.

[VirtualMirage]

after reading through this, I know it's been a month as well, but seeing that you were running rich with this intake and have a rough idle tells me that the maf housing for this intake is probably slightly smaller than the stock intake maf housing. the slightly smaller housing causes you to run rich even though you have put a free-er flowing intake on. reason is for that given voltage the ecu expects a certain amount of airflow, so say if your maf is reading 1.3V, in that section of the table for the MAF it might expect 7grams/second of air. But since the housing is smaller 1.3V might actually only be 5g/s of air but your ecu is injecting enough fuel for 7g/s so this is why you run a little rough and through that CEL of running rich. Now I'm not saying that with the intake you are flowing less air, I'm just saying for any given voltage the ecu is expecting more air then is actually being read by the maf.

 

Now on cars you have what are called fuel trims and as long as you are within a certain range you won't throw a CEL, there are short term (these are corrections the engine is making on the fly) and long term (this is an average of your short term trims). On my mazdaspeed6 it would throw a CEL if your LTFT were +/-25%, meaning it was either pulling or adding 25% fuel. When adding an intake it would be nice to see what your trims are, be it with some kind of data logging tool. Fuel trims are never going to be zero because things such as climate and the gas you put in affect them, but they are there to keep your engine running right.

 

You may have known all this, but I figured I'd share it since I learned a ton about it while tuning my speed6 over the past years.

C_Bova,

 

You mentioned you used to tune your Speed6. We may have, at one point, ran in the same circles online and possibly tuning vendors. I used to have an '07 6s V6 and did a lot of beta testing with CP-E (they are about 2 hours from my house), who made a lot of performance options for the 6 community. I was the first '07 to have their MAFci fitted and tested, the first '07 to get the engine mount working by them, and only one of two 6s V6s to have the Standback tuner working on their ride. I spent many late nights at their shop with their engineer and crew trying to get this stuff working. I was one of the first proponents to try and get a Fluidampr crank pulley made for the car (car ran noticeably smoother with this at all RPMs, especially at the top end), amongst other projects. In the end my total mods consisted of what I mentioned plus a bored throttle body, stainless steel headers, coil ignition wires, transmission cooler, and a few other things. I loved that car. Anyways, two engines later I ended up getting rid of it. The first engine went due to a rod bearing failure (the weak link in the duratec 30), which I firmly believe would have failed on me modded or not seeing as how it went (I didn't have all the mods mentioned on at this time). That was luckily covered under warranty as seen as a manufacturer defect with the engine. Engine number 2 failed less than 10,000 miles later. The dealership's shop failed to reattach the oil pressure sensor and did not inspect the catalytic converters when they replaced the first engine. The cats were so backed up from oil consumption that the increased back pressure created blow by around the piston rings, messed up the rings, and began consuming oil again. I was consuming around 1 quart of oil every 100-200 miles. Interestingly enough, the cylinder that had this problem was the same cylinder number that failed from rod bearing failure on the first engine (cylinder number 6). They taped up my dipstick and had me drive around in 500 mile intervals and come back to evaluate the loss. Over a 600 mile stretch I consumed 3-4 quarts of oil out of a 6 quart capacity. That engine, and the cats were replaced under warranty again. After being on engine number 3 I felt I couldn't trust the car or the workmanship (who forgets to attach the oil pressure sensor or inspect the other connecting parts?), so I decided to get rid of it and downsized to a Mazda 3 5-door (my second 3 that I have owned).

 

Anyways, I didn't mean to thread jack. What I was trying to get at is C_Boya is definitely correct about the diameter of the MAF housing. It needs to match identically, otherwise face a world of trouble. The only way you can go with a larger or smaller MAF housing and not have any issues is to get the car tuned to adjust for the difference. Also by going the tuning route, you'll see a more noticeable improvement in performance. Otherwise, you might actually get worse performance since everything is not matched accordingly.

 

Now one thing you could do for some potential gains, and can leave the stock MAF housing and intake in place, and have little to no risk of throwing a CEL (or causing a rough ride) is to modify the throttle body. Of course, if the throttle body has room for growth. But its usually not a mod you can do at home unless you've got precise equipment that can route out the bore. The easiest and least invasive option (with the least amount of improvement) is to swap out the throttle body plate with one that has tapered edges and use flat head screws to secure it (using locktite, of course). Some will even go as far as cutting out some of the top support bracket, leaving only the bottom and some of the top edges to hold the plate in. This will reduce resistance within the throttle body and increase surface area a little bit. The next step is one of two paths: The first option is to bore out the throttle body horn or tapering it out a little more. The results tend to be a little more torque and a small HP gain, but mostly in the low to mid range. The second option, and one that usually requires a totally separate throttle body, requires boring/tapering the throttle body horn and boring out the throttle body itself and using a larger plate. It requires removing the plate and the support brackets to do. Some throttle bodies don't have enough metal to do this, while other can around an extra 3-5mm of bore diameter safely. The larger bore will give you more top end HP and TQ, pulling harder to redline, at a slight sacrifice of low end HP/TQ.

 

Since the increase in potential airflow is made behind the stock MAF housing, the car's ECU is doing all the proper adjustments for you and is reading the incoming air properly (so long as you don't go overly large and exceed what the car is able to deliver in fuel or adjustments).

 

I had a bored TB (from here) on my 6 and the difference was noticeable. It pulled harder to redline and my 0-60 times (using a DashHawk for measurement) were on average .3 seconds faster, with some being only .25 and other as high as .5. But to put things in perspective, the TB used on the 3.0 V6 was the same diameter as the one used on the (60mm). The bored throttle body added an extra 4mm in the body itself and an extra 5mm at the horn. Because of the smaller stock TB, the V6 seemed to suffer at the top end (starving for air). The extra surface area helped counter one of the faults with this particular TB where at 100% throttle it would actually open past 100%, effectively closing back up.

 

Maybe something like that isn't needed for our car. Maybe the throttle body size is better matched? If I recall correctly, though, the 3.7L V6 is using the same size throttle body as the 3.5L V6 at a diameter of 65mm per the Ford Media PDFs. The throttle body in the Mustang 3.7 is 68mm. I'd be curious if the Mustang's TB is a straight bolt on to our engine and if so, if the larger TBs that are already out for sale for the Mustang will work on our car. Just curious...

[c_bova]

i think today I'll measure the MAF housing and see what I can find.

[c_bova]

the stock maf housing is 3" or maybe 75mm, is that what the prozen is?

Edited March 20, 2012 by c_bova

[Sam I Am]

That would be very cool if the Mustangs TB would bolt up perfect and worked. Who's buying the TB and trying it?.........lol

[mikeblake710]

i see what you did there i took my engine cover off just to get a little more sound out of it but it doesn't really do much but i might leave it out anyway. and I'm in the process of fitting the flat metal piece to fit and secure everything

[c_bova]

i find it hard to believe the position of the sensor would throw things off, but if they said that then maybe. perhaps you had the leak before? there was probably air still coming across the maf and your fuel trims were probably still in the safe zone so that's why it didn't throw a code. if you have a obd2 device that can show you your fuel trims then that will really tell you how far things are off.

 

if the air is getting in post-maf your trims should be positive (lean) since the engine is seeing more air than it's reading across the maf. i know on my other car it wouldn't throw a code unless the trims were +/- 25% (+25 is a lean code and -25 is a rich code), but I don't know where Ford triggers a code at.

 

can you show on a picture the point where you think the air leak is?

Edited April 5, 2012 by c_bova

[c_bova]

yeah that will cause it to run lean, and probably rough. surprised it didn't throw any codes though. was it like that long?

[c_bova]

yeah I'd keep an eye on it. maybe let prozen know of the problem as well.

[josephinatx]

Does this void any dealership warranty. I seen some mods also HID conversion and magnaflow exhaust system.

[bbf2530]

Does this void any dealership warranty. I seen some mods also HID conversion and magnaflow exhaust system.

 

Hi Joseph. :D The full answer is in the New Car Warranty Guide which Ford supplies with every new car purchase.

 

The shorter answer is that it can lead to denied Warranty claims on any problems or Warranty issue which Ford or the Dealer feels it may have contributed to. Auto manufactures only Warranty their vehicles exactly as it rolled of the assembly line. Any aftermarket modification can/will lead to Warranty problems. So if you have made engine modifications and later experience any engine related issue and Ford/the Dealership realize the vehicle was modified, you should be ready to eat the bill. Does not always happen, but be aware it may.

 

Again, this is addressed in our New Car Warranty Guide, for those who need more information. Also, keep in mind that a "denied Warranty claim" is different than "void any dealership warranty". It is rare that an auto Warranty is "voided", since that means absolutely nothing will ever be covered under Warranty on a particular vehicle ever again. That usually only happens on vehicles with Salvage titles, vehicles declared a total loss due to flood/accident etc., vehicles caught being used for racing an so on. But "denied" Warranty claims due to aftermarket modifications can and do occur more often than many would think. And just anticipating a common misconception - No, the Magnuson-Moss Act does not offer much protection in these cases. It is written to offer protection to consumers for other purchase and Warranty related issues, not aftermarket modifications which can be even remotely related to a Warranty issue or problem..

 

Hope this information helps.

 

Good luck. :beerchug:

Edited August 27, 2012 by bbf2530

[josephinatx]

Was there ever a fix for the prozen intake?

[FR200FOCUS]

i was excited to get this. Not anymore.

[kc300c]

I think the only way to get the Pro Zen to work properly is to intsall a custom tune along with it. It has been a long time since I looked at CAI threads, but I believe some have had luck with other brands.

[mclellan83]

Its crazy to me that they can sell am intake that throws a code when properly installed.

[Manish R. Patel]

Its not out of the realm of impossibility, for my 12 mustang gt the intake required a tune or it threw codes. As little as we make it out to be, an 'intake', it can have a profound impact on the workings of the motor.