2010 Ford Edge in the Shop after 450 km - idle and check light problem

[PW_SuperDude]

TSB 09-13-10.docWe just bought my wife a 2010 Ford Edge SEL, FWD and took delivery on July 2, 2010. On July 14th, the vehicle suddenly started to idle very roughly when stopped at the light and the check engine light promptly came on. Initially I assumed this was something as simple as a sensor fault. The vehicle has now been in the shop for two days and they still do not know what is wrong with it but suspect the transmission. I have done a fair amount of research into the symptons and there seems to be a lot of discussions concerning a faulty camshaft position sensor/ camshaft phasers or exhaust control solenoids on 2007-2009 models (please reference TSB 09-13-10 3.5L/3.7L VCT CODES P0011, P0012, P0021, P0022 - RU).

 

I would like to ask any readers who had encountered the problem indicated with the camshaft position sensor/ camshaft phasers or exhaust control solenoids to please describe the exact symptons so that I can compare. I'm a little doubtful that the problem is with the transmission and bitterly disappointed that we have encountered such a problem in less than two weeks. I'm also concerned that the dealership hasn't diagnosed the problem properly which could, in turn, lead to a lot of headaches in the near future.

 

Thanks in advance for your replies!

Edited July 16, 2010 by PW_SuperDude

[1duFos]

TSB 09-13-10.docWe just bought my wife a 2010 Ford Edge SEL, FWD and took delivery on July 2, 2010. On July 14th, the vehicle suddenly started to idle very roughly shen stopped at the light and the check engine light promptly came on. Initially I assumed this was something as simple as a sensor fault. The vehicle has now been in the shop for two days and they still do not know what is wrong with it but suspect the transmission. I have done a fair amount of research into the symptons and there seems to be a lot of discussions concerning a faulty camshaft position sensor/ camshaft phasers or exhaust control solenoids on 2007-2009 models (please reference TSB 09-13-10 3.5L/3.7L VCT CODES P0011, P0012, P0021, P0022 - RU).

 

I would like to ask any readers who had encountered the problem indicated with the camshaft position sensor/ camshaft phasers or exhaust control solenoids to please describe the exact symptons so that I can compare. I'm a little doubtful that the problem is with the transmission and bitterly disappointed that we have encountered such a problem in less than two weeks. I'm also concerned that the dealership hasn't diagnosed the problem properly which could, in turn, lead to a lot of headaches in the near future.

 

Thanks in advance for your replies!

 

I would think if they scanned the engine a code would show.

[PW_SuperDude]

I would think if they scanned the engine a code would show.

 

Well, after 2.5 days, the dealership now think it's the cylinder heads but still no ETA on a fix (First the transmission, now this? Seems strange that they would both give the same fault codes). It's unfortunate but the dealership has been very elusive and unhelpful on this issue. This is the worst dealership experience I've ever had - no one follows up with us or calls to let us know what the status of our vehicle is and no one seems to care that this vehicle is not even two weeks old and already had a serious engine failure. The only reason we have any feedback at all is because we call them every day and not vice versa.

 

At this point I have my doubts as to the dealership's ability to diagnose and fix the vehicle properly or maybe its simply a case that this is not a priority for them. Will visit the dealership tomorrow and ask for an explanation and ask to see the diagnosis report and the engine fault codes. Hopefully the next follow-up will have something more positive to report.

 

BTW, If anyone has had a good experience with a Ford dealership in the area north of Toronto (York region), I'd appreciate the recommendations in case things don't work out with this dealership. Thanks in advance.

Edited July 16, 2010 by PW_SuperDude

[Goldy]

Well, after 2.5 days, the dealership now think it's the cylinder heads but still no ETA on a fix (First the transmission, now this? Seems strange that they would both give the same fault codes). It's unfortunate but the dealership has been very elusive and unhelpful on this issue. This is the worst dealership experience I've ever had - no one follows up with us or calls to let us know what the status of our vehicle is and no one seems to care that this vehicle is not even two weeks old and already had a serious engine failure. The only reason we have any feedback at all is because we call them every day and not vice versa.

 

At this point I have my doubts as to the dealership's ability to diagnose and fix the vehicle properly or maybe its simply a case that this is not a priority for them. Will visit the dealership tomorrow and ask for an explanation and ask to see the diagnosis report and the engine fault codes. Hopefully the next follow-up will have something more positive to report.

 

BTW, If anyone has had a good experience with a Ford dealership in the area north of Toronto (York region), I'd appreciate the recommendations in case things don't work out with this dealership. Thanks in advance.

 

Sorry to hear about this...if you only had the car 2 weeks or so, I'd check w/ Ford about getting a different one (especially if it will need major engine work). You may be plesantly suprised w/ their response...I've heard a story where a tranny went out of an Expedition the first week of ownership, and without any prompting, the selling dealer offered to replace the vehicle.

 

Best of luck w/ this....

Edited July 17, 2010 by Goldy

[1duFos]

Well, after 2.5 days, the dealership now think it's the cylinder heads but still no ETA on a fix (First the transmission, now this? Seems strange that they would both give the same fault codes). It's unfortunate but the dealership has been very elusive and unhelpful on this issue. This is the worst dealership experience I've ever had - no one follows up with us or calls to let us know what the status of our vehicle is and no one seems to care that this vehicle is not even two weeks old and already had a serious engine failure. The only reason we have any feedback at all is because we call them every day and not vice versa.

 

At this point I have my doubts as to the dealership's ability to diagnose and fix the vehicle properly or maybe its simply a case that this is not a priority for them. Will visit the dealership tomorrow and ask for an explanation and ask to see the diagnosis report and the engine fault codes. Hopefully the next follow-up will have something more positive to report.

 

BTW, If anyone has had a good experience with a Ford dealership in the area north of Toronto (York region), I'd appreciate the recommendations in case things don't work out with this dealership. Thanks in advance.

 

Superdude sent you a PM

Edited July 17, 2010 by 1duFos

[ThinLine]

Superdude sent you a PM

It's the camshaft position sensor. With car in drive and foot on brake at light....idle would surge up and down followed by check engine light.

[PW_SuperDude]

Day 6 and Ford still doesn't know what's wrong with our vehicle. Now they're talking about swapping out the motor... Laughable!

 

We paid full price (~$40 K) for what was supposed to be a brand new vehicle - not a refurbished one - and Ford thinks this is a suitable solution? If they can't provide the engine codes and diagnostic reports and demonstrate to us that they have identified and addressed root cause for this failure, how are we to have any confidence that the same or related issues won't surface again? Last week we were told it was the transmission, then the cylinder heads and now the whole motor? All this on A VEHICLE LESS THAN TWO WEEKS OLD AND OBVIOUSLY SUFFERING FROM A MANUFACTURING DEFECT!!!

 

It's quite sad to see my wife go from being so excited and proud of her new vehicle to despair and frustration. And I can't help but feel partially to blame since I had convinced her that Ford had made tremendous headway on their quality. Don't I feel foolish now...

Edited July 20, 2010 by PW_SuperDude

[PW_SuperDude]

Day 8 and we still don't know what's happening with our vehicle. We called Ford Canada's Customer Relationship hotline and they had no idea as to what's happening with the vehicle and nothing shows on their system. Called the dealership (they still don't call us as we had asked) and they insist that they are awaiting instructions from Ford. Seems like no one knows anything about the vehicle except that it's defective. Great customer experience - I'm just so brimming with confidence in Ford...

 

At this point, I wish someone at either Ford corporate or the dealership would just put us out of our misery and buy back the piece of s^ so that we can go and buy my wife another vehicle that she can actually drive. At one point I actually considered buying another Edge on account that I reasoned that this was a fluke. Based on the poor customer service received so far, I'm highly likely to steer clear of Ford and perhaps look at a GM or an import instead. Take note Ford, this is a perfect way to run your business if you want to lose a customer for life.

Edited July 21, 2010 by PW_SuperDude

[Sparky]

Day 8 and we still don't know what's happening with our vehicle. We called Ford Canada's Customer Relationship hotline and they had no idea as to what's happening with the vehicle and nothing shows on their system. Called the dealership (they still don't call us as we had asked) and they insist that they are awaiting instructions from Ford. Seems like no one knows anything about the vehicle except that it's defective. Great customer experience - I'm just so brimming with confidence in Ford...

 

At this point, I wish someone at either Ford corporate or the dealership would just put us out of our misery and buy back the piece of s^ so that we can go and buy my wife another vehicle that she can actually drive. At one point I actually considered buying another Edge on account that I reasoned that this was a fluke. Based on the poor customer service received so far, I'm highly likely to steer clear of Ford and perhaps look at a GM or an import instead. Take note Ford, this is a perfect way to run your business if you want to lose a customer for life.

Nothing to do with Ford, it's unfortunate that you having problems. All manufacturers have bad apples and it's just mater of bad luck. Next 200 Edge customers will not have probably any issue at all.

I would go ahead and get another edge from different dealer. It sounds like your dealer is not very good.

Best of luck

[PW_SuperDude]

Nothing to do with Ford, it's unfortunate that you having problems. All manufacturers have bad apples and it's just mater of bad luck. Next 200 Edge customers will not have probably any issue at all.

I would go ahead and get another edge from different dealer. It sounds like your dealer is not very good.

Best of luck

 

Yes, the level of customer service we have received from the dealership has been appalling. Per Ford Canada's customer care, the power to grant resolution in the form of an exchange or refund resides completely with the dealership. Based on the dealings we've had so far, they obviously don't care whatsoever now that they have our money and I am positive that they will continue to try to apply band-aid after band-aid to avoid any responsibility in the matter. When asked about the possibility of an exchange or refund, the dealership denied that this was within their power. Wonderful, more deception.

 

Having spoken to the service department, it is now apparent that the problem is very serious and cannot be diagnosed properly. The only solution they have at present is to try to swap out the cylinder head on the right bank. Problem is, they still don't understand the failure mechanism nor do they, nor the engineers in Dearborn, know if this fix will work and whether there is any other consequential damage. Great... So my question is, if they do not know what the problem is or how it happened, how do I know it's not going to happen again? And what next if the cylinder head doesn't fix the problem?

 

My advice? Talk to others and be extra dilligent to carefully research the dealership you are looking to buy from. In the end, they can make all of the difference.

Edited July 23, 2010 by PW_SuperDude

[L1TECH]

I just read this post and can understand your frustration. Don't be so quick to blame the dealership as they are at the mercy of Ford but they should be giving you regular updates. There is more than likely an odd situation going on with your vehicle that they haven't seen before so the engineers are looking at it, unfortunately they are not physically looking at it and are relying on the techs at the dealership for their info...this can be a huge problem sometimes. The dealership can only do what Ford tells them to do as it is Ford that is paying the dealership to do the work adn Ford just doesn't give money out for an engine replacement without proper diagnosis not matter how upset you get. Every vehicle manufacturer has these issues and they all pretty much handle them the same so buying a GM or some import won't do you a bit of good if your run into the same issues.

 

Let us know the outcome once you get it fixed.

[PW_SuperDude]

I just read this post and can understand your frustration. Don't be so quick to blame the dealership as they are at the mercy of Ford but they should be giving you regular updates. There is more than likely an odd situation going on with your vehicle that they haven't seen before so the engineers are looking at it, unfortunately they are not physically looking at it and are relying on the techs at the dealership for their info...this can be a huge problem sometimes. The dealership can only do what Ford tells them to do as it is Ford that is paying the dealership to do the work adn Ford just doesn't give money out for an engine replacement without proper diagnosis not matter how upset you get. Every vehicle manufacturer has these issues and they all pretty much handle them the same so buying a GM or some import won't do you a bit of good if your run into the same issues.

 

Let us know the outcome once you get it fixed.

 

Unfortunately, I'm out 40K for a product that is highly defective. If they're that interested in the problem, they can give me a reliable vehicle like I thought I had paid for and ship this one back to either PVT at Oakville or the engineers in Dearborn.

 

The facts are (1) the entire right bank (cyl. 1, 3, and 5) is not firing below 1500 rpm, (2) fault codes indicate misfiring but cams, belts, valve control solonoids, cam phasers, etc. are reported to to be testing OK, (3) air-fuel mixture is to spec., (4) electricals all check out - technicians are convinced its mechanical but don't know what exactly, (5) above 1500 rpm, the right bank is firing normally, (6) there were no symptons prior to last Wednesday - the vehicle suddenly began to shudder violently when stopped at an intersection and the check engine lights all came on (note: the problem has been consistent since then meaning this could, theoretically happen anytime to any other vehicle), (7) the vehicle ran fine for the first 440 km before the engine crapped out, and lastly (8) no one can still tell me if the cylinder head is the actual problem or something symptomatic of the root cause. In other words, Ford will have had the car longer than we did and still can't tell me if this is going to be fixed properly or whether there is a chance or recurrence since they really don't know what the problem is and are unlikely to disclose the reason even if they knew.

 

Bravo, job well done. I have so much confidence in my shiny new vehicle. I'll have to plan any family trips so that I stay within a reasonable distance of a Ford dealership at all times...

Edited July 23, 2010 by PW_SuperDude

[L1TECH]

Like I said I understand your frustration but fact of the matter is that Ford, or any other manufacturer, is never going to give you a new vehicle just because you are having a problem. The best that you could hope for is a lemon law case adn I don't know if they have that up there. In all actuality your problem doesn't sound all that troublesome to figure out. If you have 1 bank of the motor not firing on an ohc engine, and you have fuel and spark then there has to be a timing issue, that problem could either be that the cam has jumped a tooth on that side or perpahs the cam timing controller is stuck and causing the timing to be off. Do they have compression readings? Do they have a vacuum reading?

 

You are being emotional about this situation, I probbaly would be also, but to say that this vehicle is highly defective is a bit of a stretch. Is the dealer that you have the vehicle at a larger dealer or just a small town one. Sometimes the small town dealers just don't have the qualified personnel to handle a more complex issue and this problem should have been figured out in no more than 2 days

[PW_SuperDude]

Like I said I understand your frustration but fact of the matter is that Ford, or any other manufacturer, is never going to give you a new vehicle just because you are having a problem. The best that you could hope for is a lemon law case adn I don't know if they have that up there. In all actuality your problem doesn't sound all that troublesome to figure out. If you have 1 bank of the motor not firing on an ohc engine, and you have fuel and spark then there has to be a timing issue, that problem could either be that the cam has jumped a tooth on that side or perpahs the cam timing controller is stuck and causing the timing to be off. Do they have compression readings? Do they have a vacuum reading?

 

You are being emotional about this situation, I probbaly would be also, but to say that this vehicle is highly defective is a bit of a stretch. Is the dealer that you have the vehicle at a larger dealer or just a small town one. Sometimes the small town dealers just don't have the qualified personnel to handle a more complex issue and this problem should have been figured out in no more than 2 days

Nope. Not a small town - dealership is in Toronto.

 

Per the technician, compression and vacuum readings are to spec. Even Dearborn is completely stumped by this, hence my frustration. The official line from the dealership is that given the low mileage involved, they are taking directions from Dearborn. If the PVT guys can't fix it I'd say it's time to step up to the plate and replace the vehicle. As I mentioned before, they don't really understand root cause so they're just going to attempt to switch the head and see if the problem goes away. If it not, then what?

 

As for being emotional - isn't that largely what new car ownership is about? Otherwise who cares about the chrome, the paint job, the leather seats, etc. This is why people tend to buy new rather than used (that and the supposed reliability issue... ironic). So tell me, if you bought a new flat screen TV and it didn't work after 12 days, wouldn't you demand it replaced or your money refunded? Or would you be happy to accept a refurb for the same price as you paid for an OEM? And that is a much smaller amount of money involved. A few thousand KM on the odometer and sure, fix it. Less than 500 and no conclusive idea as to root cause? Take ownership of the problem and give the consumer what they paid for.

[Sparky]

I truly feel for you and understand your problem. I would still wait and let the dealer figure it out. They will have to fix the problem whatever it takes, because the car is under warranty. Did they give you a loaner?

Let us know what happen.

:yup:

[PW_SuperDude]

I truly feel for you and understand your problem. I would still wait and let the dealer figure it out. They will have to fix the problem whatever it takes, because the car is under warranty. Did they give you a loaner?

Let us know what happen.

:yup:

Gave us a funny little Suzuki hatchback. Now I must admit I was originally not too impressed by this - heck, we couldn't get little dude's stroller in the back - but this little car had gone 300 km on a little more than a third of a tank! Amazing! And it runs quiet and smoothly, too, which you wouldn't suspect of a little econobox. I'm guessing the sedan version should probably get comparable gas mileage but at least provide a bit more cargo space.

[PW_SuperDude]

It has now been 14 days and still no idea as to what's happening with our vehicle. That means that the dealership has now had the vehicle in the shop longer than we owned it prior to the engine failing and we still have no idea if it will be fixed anytime soon or properly. There has been no follow-up from the dealership since last Friday (five days ago) despite a commitment from the sales manager otherwise . If you want to purchase your next vehicle from a dealership that never follows up with the customer nor makes any attempt at customer satisfaction, then you, too, should buy your next vehicle from Yonge-Steeles Ford. These guys are terrible.

 

Sorry to say, but based on our experience with this dealership, the complete lack of commitment by Ford Canada, the inability to effectively diagnose and fix or replace an obvious manufacturing defect within a reasonable time, and an overall lack of confidence at this point which we have in the quality of this vehicle, I would never buy another Ford product again and would strongly discourage anyone I know from doing so as well. This is an excellent case study in how to make a bad situation worse and how to lose a customer. I guess they don't really care about the second point since they already have both my money and the vehicle. Buyer beware...

[claas900]

I haven't read this entire post. But you need to go to the Dealership and stand your ground. Talk to the service manager and don't let him out of your sight, make him call Ford with you right there. When hes done talking with Ford, take the phone from him and talk to who ever he's talking to and let them know the service your not getting and all that has been going on. Its always best to the talk the same person he is. If your not getting results talking to the same person talk to someone else untell you do get results. It doesn't take 2 weeks to figure this out, they simply aren't doing anything with your car its just sitting there, its that simple. Its just like any other service provider its all in who you talk to,some ppl will help and do there job others don't and don't care about there job.

This really sucks and I feel bad for you,but your going to have to get ugly with this. If all this fails take it to another dealership,after all its your car.

[PW_SuperDude]

Day 17... There's actually some new things to share in today's entry.

 

First the good news: The dealership actually called us, without any prompting this time, to give us a status update. Apparently they had received the new cylinder head and it was installed on our Edge. Wow.

 

Now the bad news: The vehicle is still not running right. Go figure...

 

Well, due to the long weekend, no one will be available for me to talk to until Wednesday. It may sound sarcastic but the honest truth is the rental vehicle now feels more like "ours" than the Edge ever did. Makes sense when you consider that we have been driving it longer and have put more kilometers on it than we ever did our "real" new vehicle. This really sucks.

[PW_SuperDude]

Day 21. Guess what? Our shiny new Ford is still in the shop!

 

Apparently the new cylinder head didn't fix the problem (do you get the idea that they really don't know what's wrong with our vehicle, let alone how to fix it?) so they are now planning to swap out the entire engine. Wow. At this rate they will have our vehicle for an entire month. That's twice as long as we did!

 

This is truly the worst new car experience ever... 450 KM and we need a new engine.

 

I guess Ford really hasn't made any headway in either build quality nor in their customer service. I thought I paid full price for a factory new vehicle - not some shoddy rebuild. Better off buying a used import...

[L1TECH]

I understand your frustration but let me throw this out there. If they are replacing the whole engine with a new one that is only about 1000% better than having the dealership mechanic tear yours apart and replace parts like they already have so I would be thankful for that. I've said it before and I'll say it again, every car manufacturer has these problems and horror stories occassionally, unfortunately it is happening to you, however the biggest problem is the dealership that is doing the work on your vehicle. They obviously do not have a qualified technician there who can dagnose your vehicle. I am an automotive tech of 22 years and have been specializing in diagnostics for the last 10 years. I am used to getting vehicles that have been to multiple dealerships without being fixed and in all my time I have never had a vehicle more than 2 days without knowing what was wrong with it. The dealership is to balme for the majority of your problem.

[PW_SuperDude]

I understand your frustration but let me throw this out there. If they are replacing the whole engine with a new one that is only about 1000% better than having the dealership mechanic tear yours apart and replace parts like they already have so I would be thankful for that. I've said it before and I'll say it again, every car manufacturer has these problems and horror stories occassionally, unfortunately it is happening to you, however the biggest problem is the dealership that is doing the work on your vehicle. They obviously do not have a qualified technician there who can dagnose your vehicle. I am an automotive tech of 22 years and have been specializing in diagnostics for the last 10 years. I am used to getting vehicles that have been to multiple dealerships without being fixed and in all my time I have never had a vehicle more than 2 days without knowing what was wrong with it. The dealership is to balme for the majority of your problem.

 

No arguments there. Three and a half weeks is entirely unacceptable.

 

My only two criticisms against the manufacturer are (1) bad engine (assuming the diagnosis is right this time - keep your fingers crossed...) and (2) Ford Customer Care was rather unhelpful when we called them. As for Yonge-Steeles Ford, they have been awful. Especially from a management/customer care perspective. No sense of urgency, poor communication and altogether no indication of concern for the customer. Pretty sad considering the price we paid for this vehicle plus what I would consider an obvious and embarassing defect.

[L1TECH]

In order for Ford Customer Care to work one thing should be taking place that isn't...when call is placed to ford Customer Care both the customer and the service manager should be on the call at the same time. The problem is that the dealership is saying one thing to FCC but something different to the customer.

[claas900]

I'm willing to bet a new motor isnt going to fix your problem. This really is a bad deal, how sad.

[Sparky]

I think changing the engine will fix your problem, it seems to be firing problem below 1500 rpm. At least you will start fresh with new engine and enjoy your Edge like most of us do. it's a beautiful riding car with lot of power and comfort.

In couple of months all this will be forgotten.

:yup: