AWD question

[jb7032]

Does anyone know what type of awd system ford is using on the edge? I drove one yesterday and the sales person said it uses a haldex system, which made me happy because I have heard good things about that system. I have read some articles which say it has a viscous coupling system which doesnt thrill me. I have also read that ford developed there own system similar to the haldex but more electronic. So which is it??? I live in the snow belt and want to be sure that i can get a round.

[urnews]

Does anyone know what type of awd system ford is using on the edge? I drove one yesterday and the sales person said it uses a haldex system, which made me happy because I have heard good things about that system. I have read some articles which say it has a viscous coupling system which doesnt thrill me. I have also read that ford developed there own system similar to the haldex but more electronic. So which is it??? I live in the snow belt and want to be sure that i can get a round.

The AWD system in a 2007 Fusion is Ford's own. Boz

[ianken]

The AWD system in a 2007 Fusion is Ford's own. Boz

 

http://wardsauto.com/ar/ford_awd_in-house/

 

While it is not a Haldex system it is Haldex-like. With the exception of Subaru, the bulk of AWD solutions in the market are Haldex, or Haldex-like in that they are FWD or RWD under normal conditions and a clutch or other device is engaged to move power to the other set of wheels on slip. It is not a true (usiung Subaru marketing mumbo jumbo terms) "symetrical" AWD system where all four wheels are driven and managed at all times.

 

Subaru snobs call Haldex and otehr solutions "Faux Wheel Drive." :-) But the solution does have the advantage of better fuel economy under normal driving coditions.

 

Disclaimer: I am a Subaru Snob. :-) But my LGT is not big enough for my legion of rug rats so I'm looking at the Edge. I like the Edge, but am waiting for '08 and the Sync tech. My test drive was great, the vehicle is really well thought out and I am certain that grandparents could not poissibly fill it with toys for the boogermonsters.

[akirby]

One of the benefits of the Ford system that isn't often advertised is it's ability to predict the need to shift torque and do it before slippage occurs. E.g. if you request WOT by stomping on the gas pedal the PCM will sense that slippage is possible and shift torque before it happens.

[jeffreybehr]

One thing I know without owning one--I've driven 4 now, 3 FWDs and 1 AWD. The FWDs suffered from a bit of torque steer while the AWD did NOT. So I think the torque-distribution system is indeed tied to the entire engine-management system, and when one stomps the throttle, the coupler delivers more torque to the rear. I like it.

[akirby]

One thing I know without owning one--I've driven 4 now, 3 FWDs and 1 AWD. The FWDs suffered from a bit of torque steer while the AWD did NOT. So I think the torque-distribution system is indeed tied to the entire engine-management system, and when one stomps the throttle, the coupler delivers more torque to the rear. I like it.

 

Actually the PCM can anticipate the extra torque and shift power to the rear before the engine reacts.

[edged out +]

Moves power front to back and left to right if needed.....

 

Boz (urnews) as bad as his gas mileage is must have gotten the Subaru's system. LOL!

 

The Five Hundred, Freestyle and Montego have the Haldex system.

 

 

Ford Develops AWD System In-House

By Byron Pope

 

DEARBORN, MI – Ford Motor Co. has developed its own all-wheel-drive system for several upcoming sedans and cross/utility vehicles, rather than expand use of the system supplied by Swedish parts maker Haldex AB, Phillip Kurrle, driveline systems supervisor tells Ward’s.

The new system will be offered in V-6 Ford Fusion, Mercury Milan and Lincoln MKZ (formerly Zephyr) midsize sedans and Ford Edge and Lincoln MKX CUVs.

 

Kurrle says there are several reasons why Ford decided to develop an AWD system in-house, instead of using the Haldex system employed in the bigger Ford Five Hundred and Mercury Montego sedans and Ford Freestyle CUV.

“Trying to get that hardware across the ocean actually would cost us more than making it domestically,” he says. “We were also trying to get something that better fit the application. We were trying to engineer a system that was conducive to the (Fusion/Milan/MKZ) customer (and) flexible enough so we could also put it on the Edge and MKX.”

Cost and capacity also were factors in the decision to develop an AWD system in-house, Kurrle says at a media preview here of Ford’s ’07 models.

Haldex simply didn’t have the capability to supply the volumes needed for the midsize sedan and CUV programs, Kurrle says, and Ford was able to develop a simpler, more affordable unit.

 

Upcoming Ford Edge to feature internally developed AWD system.

The Ford AWD system is similar to that used on the Ford Escape CUV, he says, adding that Ford developed the system independently of its subsidiaries, including Mazda Motor Corp., which engineered its own system.

Being able to build the system in great quantities is essential to meeting earlier announced plans to sell 500,000 vehicles with fulltime AWD systems annually in the U.S. by 2007.

The Ford-developed technology is similar in many ways to the Haldex system, Kurrle says, without revealing exactly what changes were made. “This is a ‘slip-and-grip’ system. It detects the slip of the front wheels and transfers torque, similar to the Haldex system.”

The Ford technology, Kurrle says, is simpler than the Haldex system because it is “more electro mechanical (and) the Haldex is more of a pressure, hydraulic-based” system.

 

Despite the simpler setup, Kurrle is quick to point out that the Ford system is “designed and calibrated so it’s got as good a performance as the Haldex.”

The system eventually could make its way onto other Ford vehicles, including the Five Hundred.

Kurrle, who was wearing a shirt with the logo “4Drive” at the event here, says the moniker does not refer to a potential brand name for the Ford-developed AWD system. Rather, he says 4Drive is an internal slogan.

However, Fusion Marketing Manager Dan Geist says there is some ongoing internal discussion as to whether or not to brand the system, but “nothing has been finalized.”

Edited July 30, 2007 by edged out +

[scalewoodman]

I have read that the Ford system can transfer a large amount of the torque to the grip wheels and that it is one of the better ones out there so far.

? How does this compare to the Jeep drives?

? Is there any real comparison as to how well it works in snow vs. other true 4X4 systems?

 

Edge/MKX is on my short list to replace our aging 2001 Grand Cherokee with SelecTrac... however one concern I have is that it will not be as capable of getting up our steep driveway in the winter months. While the Edge has more electronics and sophistication, I'm not clear as to the real life implications when the going gets tough. Any ideas?

[wwest]

I have read that the Ford system can transfer a large amount of the torque to the grip wheels and that it is one of the better ones out there so far.

? How does this compare to the Jeep drives?

? Is there any real comparison as to how well it works in snow vs. other true 4X4 systems?

 

Edge/MKX is on my short list to replace our aging 2001 Grand Cherokee with SelecTrac... however one concern I have is that it will not be as capable of getting up our steep driveway in the winter months. While the Edge has more electronics and sophistication, I'm not clear as to the real life implications when the going gets tough. Any ideas?

 

That would be a lot like jumping out of the frying pan and directly into the FIRE.

 

The Edge/MKX is a base FWD and therefore only a F/awd. Absent TC a rather DANGEROUS vehicle for operation in the wintertime or on any adverse, low traction, roadbed. Loss if traction, front wheelspin/slip, is such a DIRE matter on a FWD or F/awd vehicle that TC MUST be tuned to react INSTANTLY, fully dethrottling the engine, moderately braking the front wheels, all the while engaging the rear drive coupling if it was not already. The rear drive coupling is normally only engaged during acceleration from a stop or from a low speed when it is most probable that traction will be lost due to engine drive torque.

 

Forever and a day it has been 4WD/4X4 "gospel" that the "opposite' drive should NEVER be engaged on a highly tractive surface and certainly not so when turning, turning tightly at low speed especially.

 

The Edge/MKX F/awd system is designed to VIOLATE both of these "gospels".

 

WHY..??

 

Loss of traction on the front wheels of ANY vehicle is to be considered, should be considered, a HIGHLY SERIOUS matter, and these days that's exactly what the manufacturers are doing.

 

My '01 F/awd RX300, operating on perfectly dry pavement, will INSTANTLY dethrottle the engine via EFI fuel starvation if I try to accelerate into a tight turn from a stop or from a low speed. Otherwise the traction coefficient required of the front tires, acceleration torque combined with lateral forces, might well exceed their ability.

 

TC on a RWD or R/awd vehicle will only do that if rear traction is actually lost, rear wheelspin/slip is detected...AND the driver doesn't quickly react by feathering the gas feed.

[Waldo]

The Edge/MKX is a base FWD and therefore only a F/awd. Absent TC a rather DANGEROUS vehicle for operation in the wintertime or on any adverse, low traction, roadbed. Loss if traction, front wheelspin/slip, is such a DIRE matter on a FWD or F/awd vehicle

 

I really don't understand this. When you lose traction in the front of any vehicle, you continue to go straight. The only thing a driver needs to do is lift the gas and/or apply the brakes, which is what anyone's natrual tendency would be to do. Having driven FWD vehicles in winter conditions for 16 years, I can't say I've ever had a DIRE condition. The only incident I ever had was when driving my parent's RWD Aerostar. Heck I've even used FWD wheelspin to spray snow onto the sidewalk and pedestrians as I drive past...

[wwest]

I really don't understand this. When you lose traction in the front of any vehicle, you continue to go straight. The only thing a driver needs to do is lift the gas and/or apply the brakes, which is what anyone's natrual tendency would be to do. Having driven FWD vehicles in winter conditions for 16 years, I can't say I've ever had a DIRE condition. The only incident I ever had was when driving my parent's RWD Aerostar. Heck I've even used FWD wheelspin to spray snow onto the sidewalk and pedestrians as I drive past...

 

"..lose traction...you continue to go straight...."

 

And if that wasn't what you were trying to do....?

 

ABS is there so you can maintain directional control during severe braking or any level of braking on a slippery surface.

 

TC is a comparable "nanny", but "inverse".

[akirby]

I really don't understand this. When you lose traction in the front of any vehicle, you continue to go straight. The only thing a driver needs to do is lift the gas and/or apply the brakes, which is what anyone's natrual tendency would be to do. Having driven FWD vehicles in winter conditions for 16 years, I can't say I've ever had a DIRE condition. The only incident I ever had was when driving my parent's RWD Aerostar. Heck I've even used FWD wheelspin to spray snow onto the sidewalk and pedestrians as I drive past...

 

You can't argue with ignorance.

[feelin edgy]

To hear wwest talk, fwd is the most dangerous thing since the Corvair.

[wwest]

To hear wwest talk, fwd is the most dangerous thing since the Corvair.

 

Actually now that you thought of it the Corvair was only "unsafe" in certain specific instances as is any FWD or F/awd vehicle.

[Waldo]

"..lose traction...you continue to go straight...."

 

And if that wasn't what you were trying to do....?

 

Then let off the gas...

 

Why are you trying to accelerate in a turn on a slippery surface anyway?

Edited November 23, 2009 by Waldo

[wwest]

Then let off the gas...

 

Why are you trying to accelerate in a turn on a slippery surface anyway?

 

A person doesn't always know when the surface traction coefficient is below the required level for acceleration AND lateral/turning forces.

 

Otherwise things like TC and/or VSC wouldn't be required.

[feelin edgy]

In my thirty years of driving, most of them in the snowy conditions of the upper midwest, I have gotten into trouble with rear wheel drive cars much more often than fwd cars. As far as the awd system in the wifes edge, I tried playing around with it in a snowy parking lot last winter, and it is very difficult to get any wheel spin no matter how stupid I got.

 

I understand your concern about loss of directional control with a spinning fwd system, but I think it is much harder for the average driver to recover from a spinning rear wheel induced skid than a spinning fwd straight line slide.

[Waldo]

A person doesn't always know when the surface traction coefficient is below the required level for acceleration AND lateral/turning forces.

 

Otherwise things like TC and/or VSC wouldn't be required.

 

Of course not, but a RWD driver doesn't know this either. When you are surprised by an unexpected slippery surface, would you rather the front wheels lose grip and you slide in the direction you are going, or the rear wheels lose grip and you spin around backwards? I'd wager that 90% of drivers can deal with the first situation and only 20% of drivers can deal with the second.

[akirby]

Of course not, but a RWD driver doesn't know this either. When you are surprised by an unexpected slippery surface, would you rather the front wheels lose grip and you slide in the direction you are going, or the rear wheels lose grip and you spin around backwards? I'd wager that 90% of drivers can deal with the first situation and only 20% of drivers can deal with the second.

 

Give it up Waldo. wwest doesn't understand the laws of physics when it comes to cars and drive wheels nor is he going to be convinced otherwise. Just ignore him.

[MOFSTEEL]

Give it up Waldo. wwest doesn't understand the laws of physics when it comes to cars and drive wheels nor is he going to be convinced otherwise. Just ignore him.

 

+1

 

He is already on my ignore list.

[wwest]

Of course not, but a RWD driver doesn't know this either. When you are surprised by an unexpected slippery surface, would you rather the front wheels lose grip and you slide in the direction you are going, or the rear wheels lose grip and you spin around backwards? I'd wager that 90% of drivers can deal with the first situation and only 20% of drivers can deal with the second.

 

"..slide in the direction you are going.."

 

But I was "going" north but the roadbed went west......

 

Actually the number for FWD is more like 100% since the only thing that can be done is hang on and pray(***1). Well, maybe a bit less that 100% as a relative few would likely know to quickly shift the automatic transaxle into neutral (as recommended by the AAA) and a few of those might even be astute enough to lightly, judiciously, apply the e-brake.

 

***1 The exception being FWD vehicles with stability control wherein the rear brakes would be automatically applied the instant understearing is detected. RWD stability control will do the same thing but RWD isn't nearly as subject to understearing as FWD.

 

AND....

 

20% may even be right for RWD. But at least there is a recovery procedure, stear into the skid, for that 20% to react with.

Edited November 24, 2009 by wwest

[wwest]

Of course not, but a RWD driver doesn't know this either. When you are surprised by an unexpected slippery surface, would you rather the front wheels lose grip and you slide in the direction you are going, or the rear wheels lose grip and you spin around backwards? I'd wager that 90% of drivers can deal with the first situation and only 20% of drivers can deal with the second.

 

"..slide in the direction you are going.."

 

I was "going" north but the roadbed went west......

 

And it occurs to me(***1) that with FWD or F/awd you might not know just had slippery the roadbed happens to be UNTIL you begin a turn.

 

***1 '01 F/awd RX300 but rear tire chains get installed the INSTANT I feel they might be needed. Otherwise it runs on nice and quiet comfortably riding Bridgestone Turanza "summer" tires throughout the year.

 

Actually the number for FWD is more like 100% since the only thing that can be done is hang on and pray(***2). Well, maybe a bit less that 100% as a relative few would likely know to quickly shift the automatic transaxle into neutral (as recommended by the AAA) and a few of those might even be astute enough to lightly, judiciously, apply the e-brake.

 

***2 The exception being FWD and/or F/awd vehicles with stability control wherein the rear brakes would be automatically applied the instant understearing is detected. RWD stability control will do the same thing but RWD isn't nearly as subject to understearing as FWD.

 

AND....

 

20% may even be right for RWD. But at least there is a recovery procedure, stear into the skid, for that 20% to react with.

Edited November 24, 2009 by wwest

[feelin edgy]

wwest, where are you coming up with the idea that somehow FWD or AWD is more hazardous than RWD? It just does not make sense, and it appears I am not the only one who thinks this.

[wwest]

wwest, where are you coming up with the idea that somehow FWD or AWD is more hazardous than RWD? It just does not make sense, and it appears I am not the only one who thinks this.

 

I really, REALLY hate to refer to the racing venue, but...

 

Have you ever asked yourself why all the racing "stock" cars that come from the factory as FWD only arrive at the track as RWD...??

[Waldo]

Seriously, the racing tie-in is the best you can come up with?! Weight transfer under acceleration gives rear wheels more traction, which is great for PERFORMANCE. You can't compare PERFORMANCE with SAFETY. They are two totally different conditions. RWD helps to acceleratate out of a corner faster. It does not help recover from a skid, in fact it makes it harder. If you've ever watched any racing you will notice that there are plenty of examples of RWD cars understeering right off the track. Additionally the cars that are converted to RWD are also usually changing engines to one that wouldn't fit in a FWD configuration, never mind that a FWD drivetrain can't take 500+ HP.

 

FWD does not cause understeer by itself, unless you are on the gas. If you are trying to save yourself from a crash, you should not be on the gas. FWD cars tend to have higher front weight distribution, which does contribute to understeer, but most AWD cars even this out, whether they are FWD or RWD biased.

 

And I'm not quite sure why you think all you can do in a FWD understeer situation is hang on and pray? There are plenty of options, the most obvious one being let off the gas and even touch the brakes, which again is what EVERYONE knows how to do. A more astute driver will also recognize that the tire slip angles are oversaturated, and will actually reduce the steering wheel angle to get a little more front grip, a trick that works equally in FWD and RWD cars.