Brakes

[igcitng]

The forum is slow, so I thought I would ask this burning question I have.

 

Keeping up with current events I read whatever stories land online about the Toyota/Honda/GM recalls. For Toyota specifically the claims are that the gas pedal 'sticks', etc and they cannot stop. Up until now I had always thought that the brake always overrides the gas pedal. Is this completely wrong, or was it true with older vehicles, in the days of the carburator vs electronics maybe? I know this is a dumb question but am curious.

 

Thanks.

[DJ Nap]

The forum is slow, so I thought I would ask this burning question I have.

 

Keeping up with current events I read whatever stories land online about the Toyota/Honda/GM recalls. For Toyota specifically the claims are that the gas pedal 'sticks', etc and they cannot stop. Up until now I had always thought that the brake always overrides the gas pedal. Is this completely wrong, or was it true with older vehicles, in the days of the carburator vs electronics maybe? I know this is a dumb question but am curious.

 

Thanks.

 

I'm not an ASE or anything, but, in the "older days", a pedal sticking would have been caused by a stuck cable, carb problem, etc.. easy fix...but the brake would have only slowed down the car and not overridden the gas. In so many of today's cars, throttle "by wire" is how it's done...and when a computer controls everything in the car (and computers do crash and go on the fritz) then these kinds of problems can arise. From what I understand, our Edges have a brake override. If the ECUs in the 'yotas were told to accelerate the car, then it did, apparently overriding any other command that was coming in.

 

It's what we get when we change things from manual to computer controlled.

[igcitng]

Thank you for the info. Every car should have brake override then. It's like we advance and fall behind at the same time with technology.

 

 

 

 

[akirby]

For Toyota specifically the claims are that the gas pedal 'sticks', etc and they cannot stop. Up until now I had always thought that the brake always overrides the gas pedal. Is this completely wrong, or was it true with older vehicles?

 

There were 2 previous Toyota issues involving floor mats and gas pedals. Consensus seems to be that while those may have been problems, they weren't the cause of vehicles suddenly accelerating out of control. A professor has demonstrated that it's possible to induce the same sudden acceleration by causing an electrical short between the 2 sensors in the gas pedal. In other vehicles a similar short either did nothing or caused a computer fault code to be thrown (recognizing that the signals indicated a problem) whereas in the Toyota the computer misinterpreted it as Wide Open Throttle.

 

The problem is Toyota is still refusing to admit that it's an electronic/software problem. However, many Toyota owners who have had their pedals fixed continue to experience sudden acceleration.

 

The crap is about to hit the fan. As bad as it's been up to this point, the fact that Toyota is still covering up this electronics/software problem is getting to the point of being criminal negligence.

 

And yes - Ford seems to have brake override in the software that cuts the throttle if the brakes are depressed. Toyota does not have this and that is yet another oversight.

 

In the software business, Toyota has done what we call "sunny day" engineering and testing which means you don't plan for unexpected problems or potential failures. e.g. Mr. Toyoda has refused to recognize the professor's tests because he "intentionally sabotaged" the vehicle and that just would not happen under normal use. I've heard that line all too often from developers - "Oh, that would never happen." Except that it usually does - at the worst possible time.

Edited March 3, 2010 by akirby

[igcitng]

I agree-criminal. It is very sad how many lives have been lost. In the Chicago Tribune Sunday there was an article showcasing a bunch of accidents where people perished. There is a guy in jail for manslaughter and they are going to look at the car again, it is still in as evidence. Terrible stories. This will definitely change things.

[ablb]

There were 2 previous Toyota issues involving floor mats and gas pedals. Consensus seems to be that while those may have been problems, they weren't the cause of vehicles suddenly accelerating out of control. A professor has demonstrated that it's possible to induce the same sudden acceleration by causing an electrical short between the 2 sensors in the gas pedal. In other vehicles a similar short either did nothing or caused a computer fault code to be thrown (recognizing that the signals indicated a problem) whereas in the Toyota the computer misinterpreted it as Wide Open Throttle.

 

The problem is Toyota is still refusing to admit that it's an electronic/software problem. However, many Toyota owners who have had their pedals fixed continue to experience sudden acceleration.

 

The crap is about to hit the fan. As bad as it's been up to this point, the fact that Toyota is still covering up this electronics/software problem is getting to the point of being criminal negligence.

 

And yes - Ford seems to have brake override in the software that cuts the throttle if the brakes are depressed. Toyota does not have this and that is yet another oversight.

 

In the software business, Toyota has done what we call "sunny day" engineering and testing which means you don't plan for unexpected problems or potential failures. e.g. Mr. Toyoda has refused to recognize the professor's tests because he "intentionally sabotaged" the vehicle and that just would not happen under normal use. I've heard that line all too often from developers - "Oh, that would never happen." Except that it usually does - at the worst possible time.

 

 

It would seem that after being invited to demonstrate his “sudden acceleration” the professor has switched cars and the method he uses to creat his sudden acceleration.

 

Copied from here

 

http://thesouthern.com/news/local/state-and-regional/article_f06e7b66-2081-11df-999b-001cc4c03286.html

 

“Officials with Toyota said in a written statement to various international media outlets it has spoken with Gilbert but says the claims he is now making are different and concern a different vehicle than those they originally spoke about.

"Toyota was surprised to learn Mr. Gilbert appears now to be making a different claim regarding the electronic throttle system and in a vehicle other than as described to Toyota last week," the company said. "Although it is difficult to tell from the footage used in the story, Mr. Gilbert appears to be introducing a different external and artificial method to manipulate the throttle."

Toyota has requested to evaluate the Avalon used in the demonstration and test the method used by Gilbert in the report.”

[ThinLine]

I agree Akirb.....some say they experienced the car accelerating when they weren't even touching the gas pedal. Toyota says they conduct strict testing on E.M.I. and that this does not interfere with the electronics which control the car. The problem is with the signal being sent to the transducer from the brake pedal. I am thankful we do have brake overide, which toyota does not.

[edgedout]

I agree Akirb.....some say they experienced the car accelerating when they weren't even touching the gas pedal. Toyota says they conduct strict testing on E.M.I. and that this does not interfere with the electronics which control the car. The problem is with the signal being sent to the transducer from the brake pedal. I am thankful we do have brake overide, which toyota does not.

Does the computer also override the transmission being put in neutral? One woman who testified in Congress said putting

the car in neutral did no good. Pretty scarey if that's true.

[akirby]

It would seem that after being invited to demonstrate his “sudden acceleration” the professor has switched cars and the method he uses to creat his sudden acceleration.

 

Copied from here

 

http://thesouthern.com/news/local/state-and-regional/article_f06e7b66-2081-11df-999b-001cc4c03286.html

 

“Officials with Toyota said in a written statement to various international media outlets it has spoken with Gilbert but says the claims he is now making are different and concern a different vehicle than those they originally spoke about.

"Toyota was surprised to learn Mr. Gilbert appears now to be making a different claim regarding the electronic throttle system and in a vehicle other than as described to Toyota last week," the company said. "Although it is difficult to tell from the footage used in the story, Mr. Gilbert appears to be introducing a different external and artificial method to manipulate the throttle."

Toyota has requested to evaluate the Avalon used in the demonstration and test the method used by Gilbert in the report.”

 

That article was posted on 2/23 - BEFORE he testified and from what I heard his testimony was extremely credible. He doesn't appear to be anything other than a diligent researcher offering his test results.

 

All Toyota has to do is see what he did and try to reproduce it. If they can reproduce it then they have to determine whether the computer can distinguish this condition from normal acceleration and if so, do not accelerate and flip the CEL.

 

All Toyota has done so far is figure out ways to say this isn't the problem and could never happen under normal driving and that is the WRONG position to take when lives are at stake.

[igcitng]

To Toyota an empire is at stake. Our little lives are meaningless compared to what they have to lose.

 

Walking into work this morning I remembered that last month a car accelerated and wound up on the sidewalk in front, and it was a Toyota. Luckily no one was walking there. No one thought much of it because this kind of thing happens often here. Last year a BMW wound up in the dining room of a sandwich shop and a Mini Cooper rolled out of its spot and halfway down the parking lot.

[flyerjmr33]

To Toyota an empire is at stake. Our little lives are meaningless compared to what they have to lose.

 

Walking into work this morning I remembered that last month a car accelerated and wound up on the sidewalk in front, and it was a Toyota. Luckily no one was walking there. No one thought much of it because this kind of thing happens often here. Last year a BMW wound up in the dining room of a sandwich shop and a Mini Cooper rolled out of its spot and halfway down the parking lot.

 

Short range targets are easily destroyed because there is no remedial time. A target more than 5 seconds away should be easily handled if the driver learned how to handle emergencies. Less than 5 seconds if you respond immediately. You don't have time to make a cell phone call to 911 or any discussion with a passenger.

1. Brakes on

2.Transmission in neutral

3. Ignition off after stopping.

 

In that order-- The engine will not destroy itself --it has a rev limiter.

[igcitng]

Short range targets are easily destroyed because there is no remedial time. A target more than 5 seconds away should be easily handled if the driver learned how to handle emergencies. Less than 5 seconds if you respond immediately. You don't have time to make a cell phone call to 911 or any discussion with a passenger.

1. Brakes on

2.Transmission in neutral

3. Ignition off after stopping.

 

In that order-- The engine will not destroy itself --it has a rev limiter.

 

Agreed, if the person can think that fast. It is scary how many would stare blankly out the windshield and see what happens. When I had my old Trans Am I lost the brakes coming up on a red light doing 50 mph. Thankfully no one with the green lite had made it into the intersection. I put it in neutral and used the emergency brake to stop. Dads, teach your new drivers that. Mine did thank goodness.

[kempie]

Short range targets are easily destroyed because there is no remedial time. A target more than 5 seconds away should be easily handled if the driver learned how to handle emergencies. Less than 5 seconds if you respond immediately. You don't have time to make a cell phone call to 911 or any discussion with a passenger.

1. Brakes on

2.Transmission in neutral

3. Ignition off after stopping.

 

In that order-- The engine will not destroy itself --it has a rev limiter.

 

Five seconds seems like enough time for a reaction if it is a situation you had planned/thought about/remotely considered.

When the shat hits the fan we all react differently. From instantaneous to freeze up.

Almost impossible for most to "learn" how to handle something that is never supposed to happen.

I, myself, have no idea what to do when; "The sky is falling."

[flyerjmr33]

Agreed, if the person can think that fast. It is scary how many would stare blankly out the windshield and see what happens. When I had my old Trans Am I lost the brakes coming up on a red light doing 50 mph. Thankfully no one with the green lite had made it into the intersection. I put it in neutral and used the emergency brake to stop. Dads, teach your new drivers that. Mine did thank goodness.

 

Be very very careful when you only have the e-brake to use. If you lock up the rear wheels, the vehicle will swap ends and you'll simply hit whatever you are aimed at with the back end!

[flyerjmr33]

Five seconds seems like enough time for a reaction if it is a situation you had planned/thought about/remotely considered.

When the shat hits the fan we all react differently. From instantaneous to freeze up.

Almost impossible for most to "learn" how to handle something that is never supposed to happen.

I, myself, have no idea what to do when; "The sky is falling."

 

Perhaps a driver's safety course would help---

[ablb]

Be very very careful when you only have the e-brake to use. If you lock up the rear wheels, the vehicle will swap ends and you'll simply hit whatever you are aimed at with the back end!

e-brakes are gone... They are now a Parking brake, they are very small and can't/won't lock up the rears at much more than walking speeds.

 

ab

[ablb]

To Toyota an empire is at stake. Our little lives are meaningless compared to what they have to lose.

 

Walking into work this morning I remembered that last month a car accelerated and wound up on the sidewalk in front, and it was a Toyota. Luckily no one was walking there. No one thought much of it because this kind of thing happens often here. Last year a BMW wound up in the dining room of a sandwich shop and a Mini Cooper rolled out of its spot and halfway down the parking lot.

ding ding ding you're the winner.

 

You're the first person I've met/seen/talked to who has ACTUALLY SEEN/KNOW OF a Toyota sudden acceleration event.

 

I do know an Audi mechanic who has worked on Audi’s that have suffered sudden acceleration HOWEVER he could NEVER duplicate the condition.

 

ab

[Waldo]

I agree-criminal. It is very sad how many lives have been lost. In the Chicago Tribune Sunday there was an article showcasing a bunch of accidents where people perished. There is a guy in jail for manslaughter and they are going to look at the car again, it is still in as evidence. Terrible stories. This will definitely change things.

 

The guy in jail was driving a 96 Camry, a car that has a mechanical throttle linkage and is not part of ANY of the recalls. That story is just the media jumping on the bandwagon.

 

Bad engineering causes sudden acceleration, bad (panicking, poor training) driving causes the deaths.

[Waldo]

Thank you for the info. Every car should have brake override then. It's like we advance and fall behind at the same time with technology.

 

Not for me thanks. There are a few times when it is useful to be able to use the brakes and throttle simultaneously, primarily for performance driving, but also for hill-starts and cleaning the brakes from rust after the car has sat for a while.

[igcitng]

ding ding ding you're the winner.

 

You're the first person I've met/seen/talked to who has ACTUALLY SEEN/KNOW OF a Toyota sudden acceleration event.

 

I do know an Audi mechanic who has worked on Audi's that have suffered sudden acceleration HOWEVER he could NEVER duplicate the condition.

 

ab

 

 

Really?! What did I win. Ha ha.

 

I have to correct myself. I meant parking brake, not emergency brake in my story. TA did not have a parking brake. Pulled the release lever and used the parking brake to slow down and stop. Sorry. My brain was is other places yesterday doing other things.

[akirby]

ding ding ding you're the winner.

 

You're the first person I've met/seen/talked to who has ACTUALLY SEEN/KNOW OF a Toyota sudden acceleration event.

 

I do know an Audi mechanic who has worked on Audi’s that have suffered sudden acceleration HOWEVER he could NEVER duplicate the condition.

 

ab

 

ab - we all know that before electronic throttle control the most likely cause of unintended acceleration was human error as was proven in the case of Audi. However, if you read the actual cases where this was reported after the pedal and floor mat recalls, it's clear that at least some of these incidents cannot be explained as human error. Folks were already stopped or stopping, with their foot on the brake when it began to accelerate on it's own. One lady who died still had both her feet on the brake pedal. And now we have a professor who has demonstrated that an electrical short in the pedal sensors can cause unrequested acceleration at WOT.

 

There is just too much evidence at this point to dismiss all of these as human error. Not to mention the statistics that show unintended acceleration reports jumped drastically for Toyota when they introduced ETC - something that was reported by State Farm back in 2007 and which did not occur for other mfrs.

 

Sometimes if it looks, acts and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. This is most definitely a duck. Throw in the whole black box issue (Toyota not providing black box crash data even under court orders) and their refusal to even admit that an electronic problem is possible and I have no sympathy for them anymore.

 

This is obviously a huge, long running corporate conspiracy to hide problems which have involved injuries and death. The reopening of old lawsuits alone will probably kill them.

[igcitng]

On Yahoo today.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_runaway_prius

[flyerjmr33]

On Yahoo today.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_runaway_prius

 

Had enough time to make a phone call but not enough sense to put it in neutral and shut off the ignition???

[igcitng]

Had enough time to make a phone call but not enough sense to put it in neutral and shut off the ignition???

 

 

Not to mention doing it at 95 mph. Hope he was using his bluetooth.

As mentioned before in this post, reality is that people that can think like that in a situation like that are few and far between. Hopefully enough of these articles will educate poeple on how to stop a runaway car.

[igcitng]

And a tiny part of me wonders if it is a hoax of some kind . . .