deepimpact00 Posted April 27, 2009 Report Share Posted April 27, 2009 alright i have an 07 with navi, and i want to add my 15 inch subs but the main thing thats holding me back is i kinda want to keep the oem navi but the down side to that is the distortion using the oem head unit, and i cant control my ipod from the screen plus id need crossovers and all that junk.. the main reason i want to use the oem unit is because i want to keep all the steering wheel controls, the down side to that is i cant have movies or music videos playing while i drive. i seen a post on here where someone installed i believe a pioneer head unit (cant seem to find the post) and the steering controls were compatable? basically i just want to know what i would need to keep the factory navi with the BEST sound quality, and around how much that would cost, or if i should invest into a new double din like that pioneer one and just hook up the subs that way.. suggestions? comments are welcome, sorry if some of this dont make sense i wrote it up in a hurry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanatronic Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 alright i have an 07 with navi, and i want to add my 15 inch subs but the main thing thats holding me back is i kinda want to keep the oem navi but the down side to that is the distortion using the oem head unit, and i cant control my ipod from the screen plus id need crossovers and all that junk.. the main reason i want to use the oem unit is because i want to keep all the steering wheel controls, the down side to that is i cant have movies or music videos playing while i drive. i seen a post on here where someone installed i believe a pioneer head unit (cant seem to find the post) and the steering controls were compatable? basically i just want to know what i would need to keep the factory navi with the BEST sound quality, and around how much that would cost, or if i should invest into a new double din like that pioneer one and just hook up the subs that way.. suggestions? comments are welcome, sorry if some of this dont make sense i wrote it up in a hurry The headunit is fine, iti s made by Pioneer IIRC, and it does not sound bad, but in the last case that you can not power the subs 15" properly the subwoofer amp will be the one ot blame, ...the headunit itself will not distort, but you may get a clipping on the stock amp if the drivers are not very efficient as usual in 15" drivers, and may need a lot of power to reach their optimal potential...a new amp will do the trick, but first IMO you should try the stock amp to see...then if not, just add a more powerful sub-amp, we have nowdays digital amps that are able to give you a very high SPL's with very little power, and just feed it with the same headunit....but man multiple 15" subs, you gotta be kidding, you will have other problems, vibrations, noise, diarrea, dizziness, qualms, tantrums, etc...I'm assuming that you are one of these bassheads that cross my town everyday...LOL...to me 8" is enough, to go to 15" will be completelly drastic, and more than one, even more crazy, just as a comparison, here home I have only one 12" sub and is more than enough, if I crank it up, I will be out of the building more sooner than later, and just to cover a lot more extensive area, and for a very nice sounding system... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tnugs Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 I installed a pioneer f900bt with a steering wheel control module and it works great. Of course I lost sync, but i'm ok with that, the f900bt has voice control also but I don't use it much. I also made the mod so the nav can be programed when driving and dvd can also be watched while driving, for my passenger of course. Keep in mind the stock head unit (the audiophile w/nav unit anyway) cuts the bass as you turn it up. This can be corrected with the use of a MTX Re-Q, users on this board say they work very well. I sold all my stock stuff for almost same price it cost me to put in all of my aftermarket hardware. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepimpact00 Posted April 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 lol yeah i had these 15'' L7's in my focus hatch, i had to run 0 guage wire to power the 5000 watt amp which is the main thing im dreading is trying to hide that huge wire.. how did u bypass the speed sensor for the oem navigation unit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tnugs Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 It was the aftermarket head unit I put in that was bypassed... I have not seen an OEM unit bypassed yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanatronic Posted April 29, 2009 Report Share Posted April 29, 2009 Keep in mind the stock head unit (the audiophile w/nav unit anyway) cuts the bass as you turn it up.This can be corrected with the use of a MTX Re-Q, users on this board say they work very well. Who said that the stock headunit cuts the bass while you crank it up? I could understand that someone wants to change the stock unit, and install a far better and more refined unit, and I'm not talking of an stupid 5Kwatts, amp, I'm talking about audiophile stuff, natural musical sound, with all freq at the level they should be, not just noise to rattle the trunk and windows. Sorry but while I measured it, using a CD with tones centered at given freqs, from 20Hz to 20Khz, just to correct the levels in volume, and set the right volume for the subwoofer amp, while I replace my stock speakers with the DLS I have now, I was not able to find any anomaly along the spectrum, at any volume. The stock subwoofer amp, and the stock subwoofer itself, just integrates nicely into the sound, as intented giving you a very natural sound. I'm talking of the right way to set a system, not what you see in those Civic's across the street with rattling trunks. What you probably have read (maybe in Crutffield, and similar stores, that by coincidence they sell the MTX device as well, which BTW is integrated by default in mainly all audiophile subwoofer amps, so no need of adding more crap to the system, and deteriorate the system any further) is that the stock system have protection for the doors speakers (some kind of roll off, or bass filter) but first there is not real need of doing it, as the door speakers given the size and shape, will hardly hit 100Hz, where the subwoofer should begins to work, what will destroy them is the extra power and not the bass, as they simply do not have the guts for that, and will begin the roll off far before that mark. Also it will be a lot easier, and actually is most of the times what they indeed do, to install that limtation on the xover box of the speaker itself, rather than on the headunit (a simple filter in pararell will work wonders) Just think about this, what sense does that make to add a subwoofer with an amplifier, to a headunit that will cut, particularly the only freq that the subwoofer is intended to reproduce...There is absolutelly no need for any design to make such absurd compromise... I strongly doubt that anybody can find any oficial info with the specs of that headunit, or any manual from the manufacturer, or any measurement that anybody had made, just to back this up, and honestly I do not feel it is true at all... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tnugs Posted April 29, 2009 Report Share Posted April 29, 2009 (edited) That statement was based on my experience and a little bit of research... I can't say it is fact... but... I did hook up an aftermarket amp and 12" sub to the stock sub outputs of the nav unit and as I turned up the volume the bass dropped out.. not just a lttle bit but almost all of it. This led me to chase down what was going on... so I hit google and a few forums and most agreed... for the protection of stock speakers most stock head units do whats called "roll off" in the bass department. All research pointed to proccessing units like the RE-Q if I wanted to keep the stock head unit and add subs. I opted to just replace the whole system as I have had no experience with these type units. I'm not a "boomer" as most of the music I like is acoustic or "live". So a well rounded sound is what I look for. I can appreciate a different point of view but, to me it seems as if this "bass roll off" is common practice. http://www.reqsound.com/PASreview_reQ.pdf <-- I take this with a grain of salt as they are in business to make money but... Edited April 29, 2009 by tnugs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepimpact00 Posted April 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 29, 2009 Who said that the stock headunit cuts the bass while you crank it up? I could understand that someone wants to change the stock unit, and install a far better and more refined unit, and I'm not talking of an stupid 5Kwatts, amp, I'm talking about audiophile stuff, natural musical sound, with all freq at the level they should be, not just noise to rattle the trunk and windows. Sorry but while I measured it, using a CD with tones centered at given freqs, from 20Hz to 20Khz, just to correct the levels in volume, and set the right volume for the subwoofer amp, while I replace my stock speakers with the DLS I have now, I was not able to find any anomaly along the spectrum, at any volume. The stock subwoofer amp, and the stock subwoofer itself, just integrates nicely into the sound, as intented giving you a very natural sound. I'm talking of the right way to set a system, not what you see in those Civic's across the street with rattling trunks. Say what you want, we all like different stuff, put what you want in your Edge, after all, its yours. I dont care what you like, and I dont care what you think about what i like, and i dont care if you think 5000 watts is stupid. I'm not dissin you because you like your music "Natural" after all i'm probably way younger then you and i like my bass, so please don't put me down and what i like and enjoy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanatronic Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 That statement was based on my experience and a little bit of research... I can't say it is fact... but...I did hook up an aftermarket amp and 12" sub to the stock sub outputs of the nav unit and as I turned up the volume the bass dropped out.. not just a lttle bit but almost all of it. This led me to chase down what was going on... so I hit google and a few forums and most agreed... for the protection of stock speakers most stock head units do whats called "roll off" in the bass department. All research pointed to proccessing units like the RE-Q if I wanted to keep the stock head unit and add subs. I opted to just replace the whole system as I have had no experience with these type units. I'm not a "boomer" as most of the music I like is acoustic or "live". So a well rounded sound is what I look for. I can appreciate a different point of view but, to me it seems as if this "bass roll off" is common practice. The bass roll off for safety reasons is not new, but what I'm trying to say is that is a lot easier to place that protection outside the headunit, rather than inside, and compromise the design, and what sense does ti make to even place it on a headunit that is intended to be used with a subwoofer and an amp after? Now in your case, it could be due to several reasons, impedance mismatch, reversed polarity, etc...or maybe it was indeed the way it was designed, I'm not discarting that posibility neither, just that is hard for me to beleive it, and I also tested it, and I did not feel it, but who knows maybe you are right...Now there are some subwoofer ams that include that correction internally, no need of aftermarkets units, anf they will integrate better...honestly for the volume that use, that is not so low neither, what I have is more than enough, and if i ever replace it is just looking for something more refined, but honestly I od not see me doing it...BTW I hear heavy metal, hard rock, classic rock, jazz, fussion, NAM, acoustic also, etc...some of those require sometimes a little extra thump!!! Say what you want, we all like different stuff, put what you want in your Edge, after all, its yours. I dont care what you like, and I dont care what you think about what i like, and i dont care if you think 5000 watts is stupid. I'm not dissin you because you like your music "Natural" after all i'm probably way younger then you and i like my bass, so please don't put me down and what i like and enjoy. I did not try to put you down sorry if you believe so, and I really apologize if you misunderstood me, I was just talking in general, not just in reference to your particular case, and please do not feel offended, but the hearing is a sense that once it goes down, will be down forever, and I absolutelly appreciate to have mine as long as I can, so I encourage others to do it. Not sure if you think the same way, and to protect it is by far wiser than stupid, but do not expect that any sane manufacturer will create a system around 5Kwatts, as 5000Watts, in that small volume, is seriously attempting against your hearing, so please for your own safety, just stop doing it...a healthy advise... Now let's talk a little bit about other topics, first IME this kind of power is not posible, from the design point of view, and they can claim all the want, and I do not care who is, but you have only 12volts from the battery most of the times, and in order to get 5000watts RMS, from 12volts, you may need roughly 400A from the battery or more, and that is considering the amp will be 100% efficient, which is not posible neither, so it will let go at least like one third of that in heat, we are talking of easily 550A or more, do your math from that point on, but at least I do not know of many auto batteries capable of providing such current continuosly, and even in the peaks is really hard... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepimpact00 Posted April 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 The bass roll off for safety reasons is not new, but what I'm trying to say is that is a lot easier to place that protection outside the headunit, rather than inside, and compromise the design, and what sense does ti make to even place it on a headunit that is intended to be used with a subwoofer and an amp after? Now in your case, it could be due to several reasons, impedance mismatch, reversed polarity, etc...or maybe it was indeed the way it was designed, I'm not discarting that posibility neither, just that is hard for me to beleive it, and I also tested it, and I did not feel it, but who knows maybe you are right...Now there are some subwoofer ams that include that correction internally, no need of aftermarkets units, anf they will integrate better...honestly for the volume that use, that is not so low neither, what I have is more than enough, and if i ever replace it is just looking for something more refined, but honestly I od not see me doing it...BTW I hear heavy metal, hard rock, classic rock, jazz, fussion, NAM, acoustic also, etc...some of those require sometimes a little extra thump!!! I did not try to put you down sorry if you believe so, and I really apologize if you misunderstood me, I was just talking in general, not just in reference to your particular case, and please do not feel offended, but the hearing is a sense that once it goes down, will be down forever, and I absolutelly appreciate to have mine as long as I can, so I encourage others to do it. Not sure if you think the same way, and to protect it is by far wiser than stupid, but do not expect that any sane manufacturer will create a system around 5Kwatts, as 5000Watts, in that small volume, is seriously attempting against your hearing, so please for your own safety, just stop doing it...a healthy advise... Now let's talk a little bit about other topics, first IME this kind of power is not posible, from the design point of view, and they can claim all the want, and I do not care who is, but you have only 12volts from the battery most of the times, and in order to get 5000watts RMS, from 12volts, you may need roughly 400A from the battery or more, and that is considering the amp will be 100% efficient, which is not posible neither, so it will let go at least like one third of that in heat, we are talking of easily 550A or more, do your math from that point on, but at least I do not know of many auto batteries capable of providing such current continuosly, and even in the peaks is really hard... Two to batteries are recommended, one is mainly for the for vehicle and one for the amp. The amp alone has two power terminals.. High output alternator to keep efficiant power to charge both batteries, and a 5 farad capacitor. I had these 15''s in in my focus running off one battery, i used 2g wire and had power going into a distribution block and had two power outputs from the Distribution block going into the amp. then two seprate grounds and it worked fine. no power cap. no special battery, Duralast battery from auto zone (590 cold cranking Amps & 735 cranking Amps) and no High output alternator (110 amp) and i do understand that the amp isnt at "full capacity" and i dont need 5000 watts... i had to go to a bigger amp then the 2500 watt kicker amp i was using because i was tired of sending it in to kicker to get it fixed every few weeks. plus im not "running" 5000 watts to the speakers, its all about ohms, and these specs are ran at one channel. im running two channels.. im running 1600 per sub so 3200 total # 5000W HCCA High Current Competition Class D Monoblock Amplifier # RMS Power Output: * 4 Ohms: 1000 watts x 1 chan. * 2 Ohms: 1600 watts x 1 chan. * 1 Ohm: 2500 watts x 1 chan. # 10dB of boost with INTELLi Q # Remote Gain capable # Selectable AUX out # Additional Power Output: 2500 Watts RMS at 1 ohm # Massive loosely-regulated MOSFET power supply # IntelliQ Bass Optimization Circuit and Remote Gain Control # Heavy Gauge Direct-wire High Current Power and Speaker Terminals # 18dB/octave Low-pass Filter # Dimensions: 22.8"L x 10.2"W x 2.4"H Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanatronic Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 (edited) Crank power is an "instant power", you can not draw continuosly 500A from any battery without drying it for too long, 5 Farad caps will give you the same, caps are used as "reserve current" just for the peaks, they will not old any amp running for too long neither.... On the other side ClassD amps, while more efficient, are by far anything but audiophile quality amps. Audiophile amps are usually designed around Class A or Class AB (worst scenario) topologies and they require enormous heatsinks and fans for the heat dissipation. Class D amps were just created for the automotive industry later on to give you more power, but at the expenses of the sound quality. Just take a look around, and you will not find too many amps for home use, designed around Class D topologies. Also do not forget that the energy is not created or destroyed, it is just transformed into other differet types, one of those, not all what you give to an amp is just for musical bliss, as in any other electronic device, you will have heat. So if you have 1000 watts per channel, you are disscipating at least, another 500-1000 watts just in heat, that is a lot of heat, so you may need around 30% more current to be drawn from the same 12volts battery, just ot keep you warm inside...not a big deal in winter time though... :shades: Anyway, as I told you, any of those figures, are by far, safe for the hearing, less in that little volume as is of the interior of any car, and I have seen many fellows get the hearing busted, so please use it with caution, you do not need that much, that's it...just a healthy advice... Edited May 1, 2009 by Kanatronic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepimpact00 Posted May 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 Crank power is an "instant power", you can not draw continuosly 500A from any battery without drying it for too long, 5 Farad caps will give you the same, caps are used as "reserve current" just for the peaks, they will not old any amp running for too long neither.... On the other side ClassD amps, while more efficient, are by far anything but audiophile quality amps. Audiophile amps are usually designed around Class A or Class AB (worst scenario) topologies and they require enormous heatsinks and fans for the heat dissipation. Class D amps were just created for the automotive industry later on to give you more power, but at the expenses of the sound quality. Just take a look around, and you will not find too many amps for home use, designed around Class D topologies. Also do not forget that the energy is not created or destroyed, it is just transformed into other differet types, one of those, not all what you give to an amp is just for musical bliss, as in any other electronic device, you will have heat. So if you have 1000 watts per channel, you are disscipating at least, another 500-1000 watts just in heat, that is a lot of heat, so you may need around 30% more current to be drawn from the same 12volts battery, just ot keep you warm inside...not a big deal in winter time though... :shades: Anyway, as I told you, any of those figures, are by far, safe for the hearing, less in that little volume as is of the interior of any car, and I have seen many fellows get the hearing busted, so please use it with caution, you do not need that much, that's it...just a healthy advice... well said i understand the dangers, mostly is for show, ive won a few trophies and car shows for my system alone. just time to pass the power onto a new car. my focus held up really well, have bigger plans for the edge. thanks for the post guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beezerk Posted May 9, 2009 Report Share Posted May 9, 2009 (edited) alright i have an 07 with navi, and i want to add my 15 inch subs but the main thing thats holding me back is i kinda want to keep the oem navi but the down side to that is the distortion using the oem head unit, and i cant control my ipod from the screen plus id need crossovers and all that junk.. the main reason i want to use the oem unit is because i want to keep all the steering wheel controls, the down side to that is i cant have movies or music videos playing while i drive. i seen a post on here where someone installed i believe a pioneer head unit (cant seem to find the post) and the steering controls were compatable? basically i just want to know what i would need to keep the factory navi with the BEST sound quality, and around how much that would cost, or if i should invest into a new double din like that pioneer one and just hook up the subs that way.. suggestions? comments are welcome, sorry if some of this dont make sense i wrote it up in a hurry See these threads for a simple solution to add an after market amp/sub to a factory system - I'm thinkin' a couple 370lb. MTX 22"s... http://www.mtx.com/caraudio/products/subwo.../jackHammer.cfm http://www.fordedgeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=3421 http://www.fordedgeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=3451 Edited May 9, 2009 by beezerk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.