Warped Rotors so soon?

[abnormal]

'07 Edge

only 35,00 KM (22,000 M)

front pads needed to be changed so i installed new ones. they were in bad shape. the slight steering wheel wobble has not gone away completely. I was hoping it would. I need rotors it seems.

Anyone else have to change the pads and rotors so early on? sounds premature to me.

[bbf2530]

'07 Edge

only 35,00 KM (22,000 M)

front pads needed to be changed so i installed new ones. they were in bad shape. the slight steering wheel wobble has not gone away completely. I was hoping it would. I need rotors it seems.

Anyone else have to change the pads and rotors so early on? sounds premature to me.

 

Hi abnormal. :D Whether it is "premature" or not depends on too many variables to account for here (your driving style, type of roads, possible defects on your vehicle, etc etc).

 

Does it happen sometimes? Yes. Is 22,000 miles too early for a pad and rotor problem? For me, yes. For you, we can't give an accurate answer. If you take an Internet poll, I am sure you will find someone who has needed to replace their pads and rotors this soon. But that information does not help you get your car fixed.

 

You need to bring it to your Ford Dealer for service. Did you replace the pads yourself, pay an Independent Shop to replace them, or have your Ford Dealer replace them?

 

Since you have a 2007 model with less than 36,000 miles, your Edge should still be covered under the New Car Bumper to Bumper Warranty. You should take it into your Ford Dealer so the problems can be properly diagnosed and repaired. If the problem is due to a defect in brake component materials or workmanship, the repair costs will be covered under Warranty.

 

Let us know what you find out.

 

Good luck. :beerchug:

[CorporateEdge]

By all means take it to the dealer and see if they are willing to address the rotor issue. Pads are a normal wear item and Ford or any other manufacturer will likely decline any coverage/compensation. If your mileage is all city its going to be harder on the pads but that low a mileage seems unreasonable. My back rotors and pads went at 50,000 km (see brake squeal post)

 

You might get compensation on the rotors. Our Honda van needed the rotors replaced at 36,000 km and Honda picked up the whole cost without our even asking.

 

Good luck

[My Last Ford]

'07 Edge

only 35,00 KM (22,000 M)

front pads needed to be changed so i installed new ones. they were in bad shape. the slight steering wheel wobble has not gone away completely. I was hoping it would. I need rotors it seems.

Anyone else have to change the pads and rotors so early on? sounds premature to me.

 

 

 

I too have 2007 Edge with 21,000 miles & a front rotor chatter for the past 1,000 miles .. dealer claims this is normal ... I am pleased to read thru a reply that the 'bumper to bumper' waranty should cover this .... we'll soon find out.

 

Between gas mileage much lower than the window sticker (and EPA) claim, rear taillight bulbs burning out, a rattling clip on the sun roof ... why should I buy another Ford product???? I guess it is cheaper than a government bailout!!!!

 

My Last Ford

[akirby]

I too have 2007 Edge with 21,000 miles & a front rotor chatter for the past 1,000 miles .. dealer claims this is normal ... I am pleased to read thru a reply that the 'bumper to bumper' waranty should cover this .... we'll soon find out.

 

Between gas mileage much lower than the window sticker (and EPA) claim, rear taillight bulbs burning out, a rattling clip on the sun roof ... why should I buy another Ford product???? I guess it is cheaper than a government bailout!!!!

 

My Last Ford

 

If you're getting FE less than the EPA estimate, then your driving style and route are simply different from the EPAs. You'd most likely get the same result from any similar vehicle. Ford doesn't control the EPA tests.

[My Last Ford]

I've read thru several articles that the EPA under the Bush admin allowed auto companies to use straight gasoline with no oxygenated additives to arrive at mpg est.

 

The Ford dealer told me this in a conversation adding that the stickers on the '09 Edge lowered the mpg.

 

Wish you were correct, and I would change my anemic sppeding habits.

[dckotwicki]

'07 Edge

only 35,00 KM (22,000 M)

front pads needed to be changed so i installed new ones. they were in bad shape. the slight steering wheel wobble has not gone away completely. I was hoping it would. I need rotors it seems.

Anyone else have to change the pads and rotors so early on? sounds premature to me.

 

What you have is not a warped rotor. You have a condition that can be called DTV (Disk Thickness Variation). When the brakes are applied, they squeeze the rotor to stop the vehicle. When the brakes are released, the release of pressure on the caliper piston the the greased guide pins are supposed to creat a condition in which the friction pads are "knocked" away from the rotor.

 

The fact that you are feeling brake judder (the pulsing of the brake pedal) means that when the brakes are released the pads are not backing away from the rotor. When they do not back away, the rotor knicks / brushes against the rotor ever revolution of the wheel. This is a slow process, but what happens over time is that the friction pads actually "Machine" material away from the rotor in the same location and, over time, the thickness of the brake disk changes and that change of thickness is then transmitted to the brake pedal in the form of "Judder" or "Pulsation" when the brakes are applied.

 

I know this because inspection of these components is what I do for a living.

 

If your vehicle is under warranty they should fix it.

 

 

The ONLY proper fix it to replace both the rotors and pads with new.

(The dealer willl probably offer to re-machine the rotors. The problem with this approach is

that when the rotors are remachined, the result is that there is now runnout (wobble) on the friction surface.

This means that it is only a matter of time before the problem returns, this time it likely will be out of warranty.)

They should also inspect the calipers and guide pins for both proper movement and lubrication.

If anyone tells you that this is NORMAL WEAR, they are simply mis-informed (That includes the dealership).

[druck52]

What you have is not a warped rotor. You have a condition that can be called DTV (Disk Thickness Variation). When the brakes are applied, they squeeze the rotor to stop the vehicle. When the brakes are released, the release of pressure on the caliper piston the the greased guide pins are supposed to creat a condition in which the friction pads are "knocked" away from the rotor.

 

The fact that you are feeling brake judder (the pulsing of the brake pedal) means that when the brakes are released the pads are not backing away from the rotor. When they do not back away, the rotor knicks / brushes against the rotor ever revolution of the wheel. This is a slow process, but what happens over time is that the friction pads actually "Machine" material away from the rotor in the same location and, over time, the thickness of the brake disk changes and that change of thickness is then transmitted to the brake pedal in the form of "Judder" or "Pulsation" when the brakes are applied.

 

I know this because inspection of these components is what I do for a living.

 

If your vehicle is under warranty they should fix it.

 

 

The ONLY proper fix it to replace both the rotors and pads with new.

(The dealer willl probably offer to re-machine the rotors. The problem with this approach is

that when the rotors are remachined, the result is that there is now runnout (wobble) on the friction surface.

This means that it is only a matter of time before the problem returns, this time it likely will be out of warranty.)

They should also inspect the calipers and guide pins for both proper movement and lubrication.

If anyone tells you that this is NORMAL WEAR, they are simply mis-informed (That includes the dealership).

 

 

If you machine the rotors on the vehicle there will not be runnout. This is the correct way to machine the rotors as it machines them true to the hub. also if he feels the vibration only when braking the rotor is indeed warped. it may have been cause by whay you are saying, or it may have been cause by excess heat. but to say the only way to fix it is to replace the rotors is wrong.

[dckotwicki]

If you machine the rotors on the vehicle there will not be runnout. This is the correct way to machine the rotors as it machines them true to the hub. also if he feels the vibration only when braking the rotor is indeed warped. it may have been cause by whay you are saying, or it may have been cause by excess heat. but to say the only way to fix it is to replace the rotors is wrong.

 

I appologize, machining rotors on the vehicle will probably not produce runout. However, I am confused about exactly how you would machine a rotor with the wheel still on the vehicle. Seems to me it would get in the way. I am sure there is a way and I am sure you will tell me. I would like to see it a brake shop or at a Ford dealer. What you are likely going to see is the standard turning machine for rotors. Those machines tend to machine runout into the rotor when re-surfacing.

 

I have measured rotors after turning and found the runout to be over 10 times the OEM spec of 20 microns. When you re-install a rotor with that kind of wobble in it, it is only a matter of time before the problem returns. I work for a major brake supplier in an R&D facility and have a (NIST traceable) machine who's original cost was approximately $125K and who's sole purpose is to measure thickness variation in brake rotors that cause pedal pulsation, but I am probably wrong and you are probably correct.

 

To be sure, pedal pulsation is caused by brake Disc Thickness Variation (DTV)

DTV is a term used by the industry.

Dealers will generally resist the replacement of rotors and pads.

If you ask a brake systems test engineer, you will be told to replace everything.

[druck52]

I appologize, machining rotors on the vehicle will probably not produce runout. However, I am confused about exactly how you would machine a rotor with the wheel still on the vehicle. Seems to me it would get in the way. I am sure there is a way and I am sure you will tell me. I would like to see it a brake shop or at a Ford dealer. What you are likely going to see is the standard turning machine for rotors. Those machines tend to machine runout into the rotor when re-surfacing.

 

I have measured rotors after turning and found the runout to be over 10 times the OEM spec of 20 microns. When you re-install a rotor with that kind of wobble in it, it is only a matter of time before the problem returns. I work for a major brake supplier in an R&D facility and have a (NIST traceable) machine who's original cost was approximately $125K and who's sole purpose is to measure thickness variation in brake rotors that cause pedal pulsation, but I am probably wrong and you are probably correct.

 

To be sure, pedal pulsation is caused by brake Disc Thickness Variation (DTV)

DTV is a term used by the industry.

Dealers will generally resist the replacement of rotors and pads.

If you ask a brake systems test engineer, you will be told to replace everything.

 

 

You seem like a smart guy. and you say you work for a brake supplier in R&D, so tell me. How do you not know what an On the car brake lathe is. Do you really think you turn the rotor with the wheel on? You remove the wheel, but leave the rotor in place. the machine is then bolted to the hub and turns the hub. you then zero the runout and machine the rotor. This will take out all runout and you will not have an issue with a brake vibration. Just for your info, this is the only way ford recommends rotors to be machined. I can not say whether or not all dealerships do it this way, but this is the correct way. You would think someone that works for R&D department for a brake pad manufacturer would know about this. But just for you here is a link to one maker of on the car brake lathes http://www.procutinternational.com/lathes.aspx

 

Also for you previous post about the pad not returning and "maching" the rotor. You say the only way to fix this is you replace the pads and rotors. This will fix the problem, but not the cause. You say to check the slides and this is something that could cause that problem, a sticking slide will cause the pad to not return, but it will also cause premature brake pad wear. their is another thing that will cause this, if the piston is sticking in the caliper, this will cause the same problem, again this will cause premature brake wear. The only way to fix that is to rebuild or replace the caliper.

 

Just out of curiousity, what do you do in the R&D facillity. If you are wondering I work at a ford dealership.

Edited September 8, 2009 by druck52

[dckotwicki]

You seem like a smart guy. and you say you work for a brake supplier in R&D, so tell me. How do you not know what an On the car brake lathe is. Do you really think you turn the rotor with the wheel on? You remove the wheel, but leave the rotor in place. the machine is then bolted to the hub and turns the hub. you then zero the runout and machine the rotor. This will take out all runout and you will not have an issue with a brake vibration. Just for your info, this is the only way ford recommends rotors to be machined. I can not say whether or not all dealerships do it this way, but this is the correct way. You would think someone that works for R&D department for a brake pad manufacturer would know about this. But just for you here is a link to one maker of on the car brake lathes http://www.procutinternational.com/lathes.aspx

 

Also for you previous post about the pad not returning and "maching" the rotor. You say the only way to fix this is you replace the pads and rotors. This will fix the problem, but not the cause. You say to check the slides and this is something that could cause that problem, a sticking slide will cause the pad to not return, but it will also cause premature brake pad wear. their is another thing that will cause this, if the piston is sticking in the caliper, this will cause the same problem, again this will cause premature brake wear. The only way to fix that is to rebuild or replace the caliper.

 

Just out of curiousity, what do you do in the R&D facillity. If you are wondering I work at a ford dealership.

 

I thought you might work at a dealership.

In response to the "On vehicle rotor turning"; I didn't say it did not exhist, just that I hadn't heard of it.

(My "Snipyness" was in large part do to you comment about my being "Wrong" on the "Warped" issue, for that, I appologize)

In response to the "Replacing rotors and pads" comment; What I meant to say is that it is the best fix for the customer. The reality is that it will likely come back regardless of what you do. Reason: There are other things going on in the design that will make the issue come back (Bad design). It is difficult to overcome bad design.

 

Ultimately, if I have this issue on my vehicle, I would want everything replaced... Caliper, anchor ect. It is not likely that the dealer will authorize that. If they do where you work, tell me where that is and I will go there.

 

I own a Focus also and have recently had this issue with it and had the same conversation with the manager of the service department. They turned the rotor and as soon as I left the dealership I could tell the vehicle was improved, but also could tell the issue would be back (I could still feel it very subtly durring brake apply). I also work with friction specialists and it was recomended to me to replace the rotors with OEM rotors (better material) and replace the pads with NAO. I didn't know what NAO meant either but was told to install Akebono brand ceramic pads (Apparently NAO = Ceramic). Reason given was that they would not be as "Harsh" to the rotor and thus reduce the DTV effect.

 

When I mentioned the dealer only turned the rotors to the engineers in my group they all agreed that rotors and pads should have been replaced. Simply turning the rotor then reinstalling the old "groove worn / tapered" (tapered means the friction surface is no longer parallel to the backing plate) pads are just not gonna get it done. It may get the customer out the door until the warranty expires, but the bottom line is likely that you will, in the end have and unhappy customer. Unhappy customers generally go somewhere else next time. When we have issues like this as work during test, sometimes everything gets replaced, rotors, pads, calipers, guide pins, anchors , then the failed components get inspected.

 

The term "Warped" probably comes from earlier days when the ability to measure and analyze components was more limited. Rotors will warp from heat, this sometimes happens during vehicle test in death valley, in most cases when the rotor cools, it returns to something close to its original shape.

 

As for what I do, I am the supervisor in the metrology lab. Metrology is a fancy term for inspection. I measure this stuff all day, every day with high end equipment. Before I went to school for this, I was a journeyman machinist. If you have a micrometer in your tool box at work you can verify the DTV issue. Simply measure the thickness of the friction surface on a complaint rotor, maybe 24 places equally spaced. You will find variation in your results. That variation is Disc Thickness Variation.

 

In my experience DTV is the issue 100% of the time.

DTV is the biggest battle brake manufacturers fight, other than cost.

It is what the customer feels when they put their foot on the brake.

 

Good luck. I am cheering for Ford to succeed.

[mark abby]

If you machine the rotors on the vehicle there will not be runnout. This is the correct way to machine the rotors as it machines them true to the hub. also if he feels the vibration only when braking the rotor is indeed warped. it may have been cause by whay you are saying, or it may have been cause by excess heat. but to say the only way to fix it is to replace the rotors is wrong.

 

 

agree 100%.

 

any time you change your pads, the rotors should be turned. you can remove them and have them turned, or, as others have said, have them turned on the car.

 

either way, there is no easy way out when doing pads. always have the rotors turned.

[Grey]

DTV (I like that term) can often be a result of a rotor overheating and the reaction with the brake pad. After a hard, high speed stop, the brake pad material can transfer to the rotor if you hold the pad firmly to the rotor (trapping as much as 1,400 degrees) as the rest of the rotor cools down. Two things are potentially happening:

 

1. the rotor warps because it does not cool uniformly

 

2. the pad material bonds to the rotor creating DTV

 

Ford provides guidelines for rotor thickness to technicians. If they can be safely turned, that is what Ford will permit under the warranty provisions.

 

How can all of this be avoided? When you stop, even from moderate speeds, come to a rest 8 to 10 feet behind the line or vehicle in front of you, and slowly roll out the heat as you move forward. If you have made a panic stop and don't have room to roll out the heat, back up if possible or put the vehicle in park and let off on the brake. You are trying to avoid holding the extreme heat on one part of the rotor while the rest of the rotor cools.

 

A sticking caliper or glide can also cause rotor overheating, but the same situation applies, roll out the heat when you stop. You will experience premature pad wear, but possibly avoid the dreaded DTV.

Edited September 14, 2009 by Grey

[akirby]

Why do the rotors have to be turned if they're performing ok? I've replaced pads only without turning the rotors with no problems. Every time you turn rotors you remove thickness which makes them more susceptible to warping. Is there a reason the rotors need to be turned or replaced when you replace the pads?

[Grey]

Why do the rotors have to be turned if they're performing ok? I've replaced pads only without turning the rotors with no problems. Every time you turn rotors you remove thickness which makes them more susceptible to warping. Is there a reason the rotors need to be turned or replaced when you replace the pads?

 

They only need turned if they exhibit DTV (Disk Thickness Variation). If they are too thin to be safely turned, they should be replaced.

 

You must be a skilled brake user if you havn't had DTV. I had lots of customers that had recurring brake issues until I took them out and showed them how to save their rotors. I also showed them rotors where you could clearly see the brake pad material transferred to the rotor. Never saw them again. (Thunderbirds and Windstars especially.)

Edited September 14, 2009 by Grey

[akirby]

They only need turned if they exhibit DTV (Disk Thickness Variation). If they are too thin to be safely turned, they should be replaced.

 

You must be a skilled brake user of you havn't had DTV. I had lots of customers that had recurring brake issues until I took them out and showed them how to save their rotors. I also showed them rotors where you could clearly see the brake pad material transferred to the rotor. Never saw them again. (Thunderbirds and Windstars especially.)

 

This was on my Lincoln LS and I was upgrading to Porterfield R4S pads. I had no grooves or pits in the OEM rotors (forgot the mileage) and I had no brake vibration or pulsation. The rotor surface looked clean. I did have some squeal with the porterfields when they were cold but never had anything that would indicate DTV.

[cv27]

... Ford provides guidelines for rotor thickness to technicians. If they can be safely turned, that is what Ford will permit under the warranty provisions ...

 

I have the pulsating issue at 25000 km (15500 miles) on a 2011 Edge. Dealer says i's normal wear & tear, I disagree. I acknowledge it's a common issue but normal wear in my opinion is the pads getting thinner as you use them. I fail to understand how Disk Thickness Variation is tied in any way to normal wear. Sounds more to me a quality issue with manufacturing.

 

I was looking at these posts to determine whether the 3 year warranty covered this issue. I'm confused by contradicting statements.

 

Has anyone precisely determined if warranty covers or not?

[cv27]

I have found this in the Warranty guide:

Some Maintenance and Wear Items Have limited Coverage

Ford of Canada dealers will replace the following maintenance and wear items for 12 months or 20 000 km (whichever occurs first) from the original warranty start date, if required due to failure caused by normal wear and tear:

• Brake pads and linings

• Clutch disc

• Wiper blades

This to me means they would replace, under warranty, pads or discs that have worn down excessively through normal use.

 

It does not address in my opinion what I qualify as abnormal failure such as DTV.

 

If you have had any experience settling this with your dealer or Ford, I would appreciate the details.

[Polecatt]

I just had to replace the rotors on my 2012 edge with 22000km. Service manager fought me hard that this is considered normal. If this is normal for a ford then they need to start producing better parts or I won't be buying a ford again. My break booster was replaced as well but that was covered under warranty.

Edited August 14, 2013 by Polecatt

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

All those parts produced by workers-in-training have to go somewhere!

[dre2142]

With the cost of rotors being so low nowadays, what is the benefit of turning rotors versus just buying brand new rotors?

 

Seems the cost difference doesnt justify turning.

[renemun]

dear friends, i just have a 2012 Ford edge 3.5

it a great truck, but when i push the brakes there is a big vibration on the stearing Wheel and the brake pedal.

 

what should i do? please some help

[akirby]

See if there is something loose or stuck in the front brakes. Also retighten the front lug nuts to spec and make sure they are all even (100 lb/ft). If not then you probably need new pads and a new or turned rotor.

[Swood73]

Wife purchased a used 2011 Sport In April. 34k when we purchased to. at 39K is when I could feel a slight vibration under breaking. Still had about 1/2 pad life left. Rear pads were more worn than front but still not down to indicators. These softer metals wear allot faster. I would say stopping 75lb wheels to boot adds some heat. Replaced front and rear rotors and pads this past Sunday with a set of R1 Concepts Premier Series Cross Drilled Rotors and pads. These also are E coated since we are in Ohio and they pound the roads with salt in the winter months. Thought I would share some photos as well. Whole kit was $500.

Kit R1 Concepts CPX11124

 

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

Have you used R1 concepts products before? How did you find them?