Transmission Opertion

[dadrett]

I’d like verification about how Edge transmission works. It’s so useful that it’s almost hard to believe Ford (or most others) would engineer this:

1. On a downgrade when I push button to lock out overdrive, the trans drops into 5th gear & stays there until I tap brake, whereupon it drops into 4th. Very handy ‘cause it gives small amount of engine braking initially and more if I want/need it.

2. While using cruise control & I start down a long, somewhat steep, hill, as I gain speed (& I haven’t noticed precisely how much), before too long trans shifts down (to 4th gear) & I have engine braking to try to keep my set speed. True cruise control in that it attempts to maintain the speed I’ve set whether on the flat or up or down hill.

I haven’t read anything, anywhere about this. You’d think Ford would tout these as safety/convenience features. Man, I hope nobody posts, “Dude, U’r gear box is totally !!” What say U, ladies & gents? Is my car on par or have I got a warranty problem? Tell U what, if it’s a defect, I’ll keep it to myself until it causes trouble.^_^ But I'd still like to know what U'all are experiencing.

Edited April 19, 2009 by dadrett

[bbf2530]

I’d like verification about how Edge transmission works. It’s so useful that it’s almost hard to believe Ford (or most others) would engineer this:

1. On a downgrade when I push button to lock out overdrive, the trans drops into 5th gear & stays there until I tap brake, whereupon it drops into 4th. Very handy ‘cause it gives small amount of engine braking initially and more if I want/need it.

2. While using cruise control & I start down a long, somewhat steep, hill, as I gain speed (& I haven’t noticed precisely how much), before too long trans shifts down (to 4th gear) & I have engine braking to try to keep my set speed. True cruise control in that it attempts to maintain the speed I’ve set whether on the flat or up or down hill.

I haven’t read anything, anywhere about this. You’d think Ford would tout these as safety/convenience features. Man, I hope nobody posts, “Dude, U’r gear box is totally !!” What say U ladies & gents? Is my car on par or have I got a warranty problem? Tell U what, if it’s a defect, I’ll keep it to myself until it causes trouble.^_^ But I'd still like to know what U'all are experiencing.

 

Hi dadrett. :D Your transmission is fine and working as designed. If you check your Owners Manual, these functions are described in detail pretty much exactly as you mention.

 

It is not the first Ford Transmission to have an "Overdrive Lockout Button".

 

Same thing with the cruise control. This is how most modern cruise controls have worked for some time now.

 

The reason Ford does not tout these two things as safety/convenience features is that just about every modern vehicle transmission does the same things, or something very similar. So no sense wasting advertising dollars telling people "Buy a Ford! Our transmission works just like every other automakers transmission!", or "Buy a Ford, our cruise control will actually work when you are not driving on absolutely flat terrain!"

 

It would be almost the equivalent (slightly exaggerated ) of Ford advertising that they have this great feature,

"power windows that go up and down at the press of a button". Everyone has that. No sense in advertising features that everyone else also has on their cars.

 

And just so there is no misunderstanding, I am not trying to be a wise guy, this is what Ford would be saying since by definition this is is how cruise control systems and transmissions with overdrive lockouts work, from virtually every automaker, for quite some time now.

 

Hope this information helps.

 

Good luck. :beerchug:

Edited April 6, 2009 by bbf2530

[dadrett]

Hi dadrett. :D Your transmission is fine and working as designed. If you check your Owners Manual, these functions are described in detail pretty much exactly as you mention.............................................

................................................................................

Hope this information helps.

Good luck. :beerchug:

Hey bbf, thanks for the lesson. We’re never too old to learn. (I’ve been driving since 1957 :yup: ) I looked in OM :read: again at trans operation, pgs 216-220 “Automatic Transmission Operation” & pgs 90-93 “Speed Control” (OM, 2nd printing, Oct 2006) & this is what I find:

pg 219- D (Drive) without Overdrive (point 2) – “Provides engine braking.” Says nothing about its flexibility – press button, down to 5th, tap brake, drops to 4th.

pgs 90-91 – under Setting speed control – Note: “If vehicle speed increases above the set speed on a downhill, you may want to apply brakes to reduce speed.” Says nothing about trans shifting down (on its own) to try to maintain set speed.

Could it be that later printing (there are at least 3) of OM has more detail about trans operation?

This is 5th Ford I’ve owned w/OD lockout: ’98 F-150, ’98 Taurus, ’05 F-150, ’05 Taurus (no, they didn’t come as sets ) so I’m acquainted w/OD & lockout button. None of the five have had “adaptive cruise control.” U heard it (this new term) here first. If, as U say, all newer transmissions operate in this manner, U’r absolutely correct that it wouldn’t be advertised. I made my comments based on my never having experienced a trans that worked this way.

I do not consider U to be a wise guy. I asked for information & U came forth. For that I thank U and I hope U’r not the last to respond.

PS: If U'r ever in SF Bay area, I'd be glad to :beerchug: stand U a pint!

Edited April 7, 2009 by dadrett

[bbf2530]

Hey bbf, thanks for the lesson. We’re never too old to learn. (I’ve been driving since 1957 :yup: ) I looked in OM :read: again at trans operation, pgs 216-220 “Automatic Transmission Operation” & pgs 90-93 “Speed Control” (OM, 2nd printing, Oct 2006) & this is what I find:

pg 219- D (Drive) without Overdrive (point 2) – “Provides engine braking.” Says nothing about its flexibility – press button, down to 5th, tap brake, drops to 4th.

pgs 90-91 – under Setting speed control – Note: “If vehicle speed increases above the set speed on a downhill, you may want to apply brakes to reduce speed.” Says nothing about trans shifting down (on its own) to try to maintain set speed.

Could it be that later printing (there are at least 3) of OM has more detail about trans operation?

This is 5th Ford I’ve owned w/OD lockout: ’98 F-150, ’98 Taurus, ’05 F-150, ’05 Taurus (no, they didn’t come as sets ) so I’m acquainted w/OD & lockout button. None of the five have had “adaptive cruise control.” U heard it (this new term) here first. If, as U say, all newer transmissions operate in this manner, U’r absolutely correct that it wouldn’t be advertised. I made my comments based on my never having experienced a trans that worked this way.

I do not consider U to be a wise guy. I asked for information & U came forth. For that I thank U and I hope U’r not the last to respond.

PS: If U'r ever in SF Bay area, I'd be glad to :beerchug: stand U a pint!

 

Hi dadrett. :D You are welcome. Just a few added points: By definition, the O/D lockout button automatically takes the transmission out of 6th gear and into a lower gear, usually fifth if you are going fast enough. 6th gear is the "Overdrive" gear, so it is locking out 6th gear. In other words, if it did not drop from 6th to 5th, what good would it be? If it doesn't lock out 6th gear (Overdrive), it's not an "Overdrive Lockout Button" Correct?

 

Concerning the "tap the brakes and drop to fourth..." statement: When I have the opportunity, I will check on my car to see if it does the same. An educated guess would lead me to believe that your transmission is working exactly as designed.

 

Regarding the cruise control: What you are reading in the Owners Manual concerning possibly needing to apply the brakes is essentially a Lawyers release. To protect themselves, Ford is telling people too dumb to figure it out for themselves, that the occasion may arise when a hill may be so steep that the brakes may need to be used. If they do not add that legalese, you just know that some nitwit will have an accident and claim that their car did not slow down enough while on cruise control, and they never hit the brakes because the Owners Manual did not tell them that they may need to, even though they were using cruise control on a steep hill (not a bright idea). In other words, for the benefit of the driving skill and common sense challenged among us, Ford is simply saying that the need may sometimes arise when we may need to use the brakes, even with speed control on. Just a legal disclaimer. You, I and most drivers with a modicum of common sense already know this, a few out on the roads don't.

Also, it is not an "Adaptive cruise control" system. Adaptive Cruise Control" does exist on some more expensive cars now, and will eventually filter down. It usually uses radar to judge the distance between your car and other vehicles, fixed objects, etc. It will actually slow your car by applying the brakes if necessary to keep a safe distance between you and the vehicle in front of you, then speed back up to your preset speed when it is safe to do so. Our cruise control will simply keep the same constant speed by throttle control and gear changes.

 

If this information is confusing, let me know and I will try to explain it in a clearer manner.

 

Good luck. :beerchug:

Edited April 7, 2009 by bbf2530

[dadrett]

bbf,

U'r info is sound and U'r explanation is clear. I know some of the spendy cars that we hoi polloi lust after actually have adaptive cruise control (notice that in post #3 I put it in quotes,) but if that term has not been copyrighted, patented or other wise lawyered up, I say let us be adept, and adopt and adapt it to our purposes. Why should the moneyed crowd :shades: have all the fun and trick auto “stuff”? It’s time we peons participate.

 

PS: Some might think U & I have too much time on our hands. :rolleyes:

PSS: Awaiting results of U'r brake tap into 4th gear experiment.

Edited April 7, 2009 by dadrett

[Waldo]

What you're talking about is actually "Hill Descent mode". It's more than just OD cancel, it actually looks for the brake pedal switch and can actually figure out that if you are on the brakes, but not slowing down, you must be going down a hill, so it will downshift and use engine braking. This is a feature mainly designed for towing. In fact on some new Ford's, like the Flex, instead of a yellow O/D light on the cluster, it has a little picture of a truck going down a hill.

 

bbf, I don't believe your MKZ has "Hill Descent", it just has O/D cancel, which is different.

 

By the way, Ford already uses the term "Adaptive Cruise Control" in the MKS owner's manual, so you're not going to get any credit for the term!

Edited April 7, 2009 by Waldo

[bbf2530]

bbf,

U'r info is sound and U'r explanation is clear. I know some of the spendy cars that we hoi polloi lust after actually have adaptive cruise control (notice that in post #3 I put it in quotes,) but if that term has not been copyrighted, patented or other wise lawyered up, I say let us be adept, and adopt and adapt it to our purposes. Why should the moneyed crowd :shades: have all the fun and trick auto “stuff”? It’s time we peons participate.

 

PS: Some might think U & I have too much time on our hands. :rolleyes:

PSS: Awaiting results of U'r brake tap into 4th gear experiment.

 

Hi dadrett. :D Glad my reply was somewhat understandable. And now it seems between you, Waldo and I we have solved this triple mystery. Waldo has supplied the missing answer to the "tap the brake/downshift" question. "Hill Descent Mode". Forgot about that term. Thanks for the heads up, Waldo.

 

Actually, in the 2009 Edge Owners Manual they call it "Overdrive Cancel with Grade Assist", but the theory is the same.

 

In fact, here is a copy and paste from a section of the 2009 Edge Owners Manual (2nd printing) describing the "Overdrive Cancel with Grade Assist" mode:

 

Grade Assist

• Improves driving experience in hilly terrain or mountainous areas by

providing additional grade (engine) braking and extends lower gear

operation on uphill climbs.

• Provides additional engine braking through the automatic transmission

shift strategy which reacts to vehicle inputs (vehicle acceleration,

accelerator pedal, brake pedal and vehicle speed).

• Allows the transmission to select gears that will provide the desired

engine braking based on the vehicle inputs mentioned above. This will

increase engine RPM during engine braking.

Overdrive Cancel with Grade Assist is designed to provide optimal gear

selection in hilly terrain or mountainous areas. It is recommended that

you return to O/D (overdrive mode) on flat terrain to provide the best

fuel economy and transmission function.

 

So as you can see, it does specifically mention using the "vehicle acceleration, accelerator pedal, brake pedal and vehicle speed" and allowing "...the transmission to select gears that will provide the desired engine braking based on the vehicle inputs mentioned above." So there is the smoking gun that explains how it will allow the transmission to downshift for added engine braking if you should use the brakes while in "Grade Assist Mode".

 

I was working from the 2008 Edge Manual in my earlier replies, which had a less descriptive definition of the feature.

 

And unfortunately, we won't be able to retire on the "Adaptive Cruise Control" copyright residuals, but it was one hell of an idea! :happy feet:

 

Good luck dadrett! :beerchug:

 

 

PS - I agree that some may think we have too much time on your hands. However, I prefer to think of my spare time as one of the perks of getting older! And that gives me the added perk of being able to assist others, which I also enjoy! :grouphug:

Edited April 7, 2009 by bbf2530

[dadrett]

Hi dadrett. :D Glad my reply was somewhat understandable. And now it seems between you, Waldo and I we have solved this triple mystery. Waldo has supplied the missing answer to the "tap the brake/downshift" question. "Hill Descent Mode". Forgot about that term. Thanks for the heads up, Waldo.

Actually, in the 2009 Edge Owners Manual they call it "Overdrive Cancel with Grade Assist", but the theory is the same.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

. . . . . . . . quote from post #7 has been truncated . . . . . . . . .

. . . . . . . . ('cause U can look up there and :read: it) . . . . . . . . .

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

PS - I agree that some may think we have too much time on your hands. I prefer to think my spare time as one of the perks of getting older! And that gives me the added perk of being able to assist others, which I also enjoy! :grouphug:

Dude, U stole my thunder. <_< While I’m reading Waldo’s post #6, Googling “MKS Owners Manual” and coming up with a link to a post in Lincoln MKS Club & Forum that says “Anyone can get a PDF version of any Ford owner's guide 1996-2009, including the MKS, from Ford's Fleet website. You don't need an account.” and then going to that site and reading about Lincoln MKS trans operation, U’r posting the above.

So good news all around. It turns out that though I may be old(er) I’m not delusional :blink:, my ’07 manual says nothing about this (the trans, not my state of mind), U’r ’08 manual is more descriptive than ’07, but less than ’09 and ’09 manual makes a clean breast of the whole thing. In addition to all this, we now have a site to go to for all of our Ford OM needs. :banvictory: https://www.fleet.ford.com/maintenance/owne...als/default.asp

or

http://genuineservice.com/genuineservice/e...CFRBbagodswmmFA

Edited April 17, 2009 by dadrett

[dadrett]

Was going over posts again & it occurs to me we still haven't resolved issue of trans shifting down on its own while descending a hill in "cruise." This doesn't involve "Grade Assist" because OD is not locked out.

Edited April 7, 2009 by dadrett

[bbf2530]

Was going over these posts again & it occurs to me we still haven't resolved issue of trans shifting down on its own while descending a hill in "cruise." This doesn't involve "Grade Assist" because OD is not locked out.

 

Hi dadrett. :D Yes, we did resolve/answer it earlier. The transmission will upshift and downshift to maintain the set cruise control speed (within certain limitations). And actually, as an FYI: Ford now refers to it as "Speed Control", and it is listed as such in the Owners Manual Index.

 

If you have noticed, if you are driving up a steep hill with cruise control on, the transmission will sometimes downshift to maintain speed (again, within certain limitations). This is due to 6th gear being too tall of a gear for the hill climb. Same design function for the opposite result.

 

Another example: If you hit the "Resume" button after having to hit the brakes for some reason (like stopping at a traffic light), the transmission will upshift all the way up through the gears, until you reach the previously set cruise control speed (assuming you had cruise control on when you hit the brakes).

 

Your Edge is working just perfectly. And exactly as designed.

 

Good luck. :beerchug:

Edited April 7, 2009 by bbf2530

[dadrett]

Hi dadrett. :D Yes, we did resolve/answer it earlier. The transmission will upshift and downshift to maintain the set cruise control speed (within certain limitations).

.........................................................................

.........................................................................

Your Edge is working just perfectly. And exactly as designed.

 

Good luck. :beerchug:

I follow what U say & agree as long as the operation U describe occurs using "Grade Assist" feature while OD is locked out. I've pulled up PDF of '09 Edge OM & rear/reread sections describing "Trans Oper" & "Speed Control." If I've missed something, can U point me to it? Maybe I'm just a little (take U'r pick). I suffer from (or am blessed with) OCD so maybe I'm being nitpicky. :rolleyes:

PS: Are we approaching the stage where we're :beatdeadhorse: ?

Edited April 7, 2009 by dadrett

[bbf2530]

I follow what U say and agree as long as the operation U describe occurs using "Grade Assist" feature while OD is locked out. I've pulled up PDF of '09 Edge OM & rear/reread sections describing "Trans Oper" & "Speed Control." If I've missed something, can U point to it? Maybe it's just that I'm a little

 

Hi dadrett. :D I think the difficulty here is that we/you are expecting the Owners Manual to describe all features and functions in much more precise detail than can be done in a layman's readable handbook (or as you stated, maybe you are being a bit nitpicky :rolleyes: ). Essentially, an Automaker can't cram everything into an Owners Manual that will still fit into the glove compartment. If they did, it would then be a Shop Manual, and you would need to carry it in the trunk. :shades:

 

Yes, the Owners Manual may not specifically state in black and white that the transmission will upshift and downshift to maintain speed (again, within certain limitations). However, this is a regular/common function of modern computerized Speed Control systems, and it is a function that has been around for some time now. Especially since the advent of computer controlled engines, transmissions, engine controls, Speed Control Systems, etc etc. Your Speed Control system will use the throttle and transmission shifting (within certain limitations) to keep the set speed

 

What it comes down to is this, you have to take it on faith (and our word :stats: ) that since your transmission is downshifting to exactly maintain the set Speed Control speed, it must be a normal function. In most instances in life, the obvious explanation is the correct one. Wisdom of the ages!

 

Of course, the other "Conspiracy/Alien UFO Abduction Theory" would be that you have some weird malfunction that happens to magically keep your set Speed Control speed, while it is simultaneously malfunctioning. Now of course, that would not be possible, as a malfunctioning Speed Control, or Transmission would obviously do the complete opposite and not keep the set Speed Control speed.

 

So bottom line, if you are looking for something in the Owners Manual that will answer this question, you may/will not find it. But you can believe us that your Edge is working properly, at least concerning your transmission and Speed Control Systems.

 

Modern Speed Control Systems will utilize the transmission to upshift and downshift to help maintain the set speed (again, within certain limitations).

 

Good luck. :beerchug:

 

 

PS - And we are now beginning to approach the "We have too much time on our hands" International Date Line! So please bring your seat backs and tray tables into their upright and locked positions!

Edited April 7, 2009 by bbf2530

[dadrett]

Hi dadrett. I think the difficulty here is that we/you are expecting the Owners Manual to describe all features and functions in much more precise detail than can be done in an layman's readable handbook (or as you stated, maybe you are being a bit nitpicky :rolleyes: ). Essentially, an Automaker can't cram everything into a Manual that will still fit into the glove compartment.

.........................................................................

.........................................................................

Modern Speed Control Systems will utilize the transmission to upshift and downshift to help maintain the set speed (within certain limitations).

 

Good luck.

 

PS - And we are now beginning to approach the "We have too much time on our hands" International Date Line! So please bring your seat backs and tray tables into their upright and locked positions!

Well said my friend, :D and U know what? When it's all said & done I'm tickled s.i.less :yup: with the way my car goes down hill.

 

PS: Seat belt is snug, tray is away & I'm ready to (gently) smack the tarmac! :hysterical2:

Edited April 7, 2009 by dadrett

[dadrett]

This thread is now Officially Closed.:stop: Less important matters of the Universe can be discussed

(& maybe solved as bbf :beerchug: & I have done) elsewhere.

Edited April 7, 2009 by dadrett

[BlazedUp]

:beatdeadhorse:

[dadrett]

:beatdeadhorse:

Well whudiyuno , only took 2/5 hour :yup: for someone to violate sanctity of closing of this thread <_<. Listen - do I hear an echo from post #11? No harm done. Now everyone :party2: knows all they never wanted to about Edge/MKX tranny op.

 

PS: Just a friendly :poke: @ BlazedUp. He shud be in my corner; after all, my '07 is that fiery orange :extinguish: :yup: color like his. Halloween has become our favorite holiday. :hysterical2:

Edited April 19, 2009 by dadrett

[dadrett]

Edited April 7, 2009 by dadrett

[wwest]

I’d like verification about how Edge transmission works. It’s so useful that it’s almost hard to believe Ford (or most others) would engineer this:

1. On a downgrade when I push button to lock out overdrive, the trans drops into 5th gear & stays there until I tap brake, whereupon it drops into 4th. Very handy ‘cause it gives small amount of engine braking initially and more if I want/need it.

2. While using cruise control & I start down a long, somewhat steep, hill, as I gain speed (& I haven’t noticed precisely how much), before too long trans shifts down (to 4th gear) & I have engine braking to try to keep my set speed. True cruise control in that it attempts to maintain the speed I’ve set whether on the flat or up or down hill.

I haven’t read anything, anywhere about this. You’d think Ford would tout these as safety/convenience features. Man, I hope nobody posts, “Dude, U’r gear box is totally !!” What say U, ladies & gents? Is my car on par or have I got a warranty problem? Tell U what, if it’s a defect, I’ll keep it to myself until it causes trouble.^_^ But I'd still like to know what U'all are experiencing.

 

Since engine compression braking on a FWD or F/awd can turn deadly so very quickly it is unlikely that the downshifting you are experiencing is for that "cause".

 

More likely it is for "extending fuel cut" during coastdoown periods when the engine might actually "stall" if the RPM's aren't kept high enough with the fuel flow off for economy.

 

Most modern day FWD and F/awd vehicles will NOT downshift to a level that would result in a substantial level of engine compression braking absent being "triggered" by actual brake application.

[dadrett]

Greetings wwest, thanks for the reply. What is it about FWD or F/awd that can cause engine compression braking to “turn deadly so very quickly?”

 

When U talk of “extending full cut,” (which I understand is to improve emissions & fuel economy) are U referring to situation #1 or #2?

[bbf2530]

Greetings wwest, thanks for the reply. What is it about FWD or F/awd that can cause engine compression braking to “turn deadly so very quickly?”

 

When U talk of “extending full cut,” (which I understand is to improve emissions & fuel economy) are U referring to situation #1 or #2?

 

Hi dadrett. :D I will attempt to make the facts clear while trying to remain as sensitive to wwest's feelings possible, considering the circumstances.

 

To begin, his information is incorrect. And the fact that it is incorrect can be easily verified with some research, or just some plain old common sense. The fact that no reliable automotive source will back this opinion is a good start.

 

Sure, slamming a car into a too low gear at higher speeds in a low traction condition can be dangerous whether you are in a RWD, FWD AWD or 4WD vehicle. However, that is not what we are discussing here. So his information is incorrect and patently misleading for the sake of this discussion. No need to bring up a personal agenda where it is not applicable.

 

So to save some research, lets use the common sense approach for a moment: If we are to accept his theory/opinion, are we to assume that most of the cars on the road today are unsafe? And to top it off, there would need to be a vast conspiracy to hide this information from the public, since it surely is not information that can be gathered from any reliable automotive source. It has not even been reported by the general press, which jumps on any unreliable and sensationalistic story possible?

 

In fact, for the average driver on the road, a RWD vehicle will have the most dangerous handling tendencies (oversteer) in power on driving on both dry and especially wet, slippery, snowy, and icy conditions. This is common automotive knowledge.

 

This is an excellent lesson on the use of the Internet (especially Internet forums of a public nature) to gather information. Forums like this will pool all sorts of people, information and opinions. Some are accurate/reliable and some are not. So they must be taken with a grain of salt. And they need to be followed up with some personal research of expert sites (not another public forum).

 

I will never ask someone to believe my point of view in an unquestioning manner. So always beware those who insist that you believe them without some sort of corroborating evidence and research. Especially if they follow up with a lot of automotive double talk and gobbledygook.

 

Dadrett, do not take my word for it. I am not going to post a long winded reply full of automotive doublespeak (which by viewing past posts is what I have a feeling someone else may do ). If you simply Google AWD, FWD, RWD, 4WD etc, all of the answers are there.

 

Another hint: You can often get a good handle on where someone is coming from (and how accurate their information is) by viewing their past posts on this and other Blue Oval Forums. Some people seem to enjoy posting false information just to stir things up. Gives them a thrill. While the jury is still out on whether wwest is this type of individual, the early returns make some of us wonder.

 

Your vehicle is safe, whether FWD, RWD AWD or 4WD. And to top it all off, a bit of research shows that wwest (despite his anti-FWD/AWD personal agenda) drives the very type of vehicles he claims are unsafe. :shades:

 

And the answer we gave you in earlier replies were correct and really did settle the subject.

 

I have no bias towards any drive configuration. I have owned many RWD and FWD vehicles over the years. I have never had a need to own AWD or 4WD vehicles, although I have driven many miles in those types of vehicles and can certainly understand the need some people would have for them. The bottom line is that all are safe when driven properly, and all are unsafe when driven improperly. No personal agenda here.

 

Hope this information helps.

 

Good luck. :beerchug:

 

 

PS - Perhaps I read the meaning of your questions incorrectly. Is it really a case of you knowing all of this and simply egging him on for the fun of it?

Edited June 19, 2009 by bbf2530

[wwest]

Hi dadrett. :D I will attempt to make the facts clear while trying to remain as sensitive to wwest's feelings possible, considering the circumstances.

 

To begin, his information is incorrect. And the fact that it is incorrect can be easily verified with some research, or just some plain old common sense. The fact that no reliable automotive source will back this opinion is a good start.

 

Sure, slamming a car into a too low gear at higher speeds in a low traction condition...

 

SLAMMING....TOO LOW...

 

Why do you feel it necessary to quote such EXTREME conditions...??

 

The new VW FWD stick shift uses a TC technique that will simply "up-rev" the engine to match roadspeed if one of the driven wheels develops slippage due to the use of too much engine compression braking. We ALL know, or at least should know, that a simple release of pressure on the gas pedal in the wrong conditions can quickly result in loss of directional control, FWD or RWD.

 

The advantage goes to RWD simply because directional control can still be maintained.

 

 

can be dangerous whether you are in a RWD, FWD AWD or 4WD vehicle. However, that is not what we are discussing here. So his information is incorrect and patently misleading for the sake of this discussion. No need to bring up a personal agenda where it is not applicable.

 

So to save some research, lets use the common sense approach for a moment: If we are to accept his theory/opinion, are we to assume that most of the cars on the road today are unsafe?

 

Yes, YES...

 

The only reason the majority of vehicles on the road today are FWD is because they are cheaper to manufacture.

 

And to top it off, there would need to be a vast conspiracy to hide this information from the public

 

So, how many people out there in the general public are aware that vehicles with ABS are slightly less safe then those without...??

 

, since it surely is not information that can be gathered from any reliable automotive source. It has not even been reported by the general press, which jumps on any unreliable and sensationalistic story possible?

 

In fact, for the average driver on the road, a RWD vehicle will have the most dangerous handling tendencies (oversteer) in power on driving on both dry and especially wet, slippery, snowy, and icy conditions.

 

This is common automotive knowledge.

 

So, other than VSC activation or judious application of the rear implimented e-brake, what is your method for recovering from the most dangerous handling tendency of FWD (understear/plowing)...??

 

This is an excellent lesson on the use of the Internet (especially Internet forums of a public nature) to gather information. Forums like this will pool all sorts of people, information and opinions. Some are accurate/reliable and some are not. So they must be taken with a grain of salt. And they need to be followed up with some personal research of expert sites (not another public forum).

 

I will never ask someone to believe my point of view in an unquestioning manner. So always beware those who insist that you believe them without some sort of corroborating evidence and research. Especially if they follow up with a lot of automotive double talk and gobbledygook.

 

Dadrett, do not take my word for it. I am not going to post a long winded reply full of automotive doublespeak (which by viewing past posts is what I have a feeling someone else may do ). If you simply Google AWD, FWD, RWD, 4WD etc, all of the answers are there.

 

Another hint: You can often get a good handle on where someone is coming from (and how accurate their information is) by viewing their past posts on this and other Blue Oval Forums. Some people seem to enjoy posting false information just to stir things up. Gives them a thrill. While the jury is still out on whether wwest is this type of individual, the early returns make some of us wonder.

 

Your vehicle is safe, whether FWD, RWD AWD or 4WD. And to top it all off, a bit of research shows that wwest (despite his anti-FWD/AWD personal agenda) drives the very type of vehicles he claims are unsafe. :shades:

 

And the answer we gave you in earlier replies were correct and really did settle the subject.

 

I have no bias towards any drive configuration. I have owned many RWD and FWD vehicles over the years. I have never had a need to own AWD or 4WD vehicles, although I have driven many miles in those types of vehicles and can certainly understand the need some people would have for them. The bottom line is that all are safe when driven properly, and all are unsafe when driven improperly. No personal agenda here.

 

Hope this information helps.

 

Good luck. :beerchug:

 

 

PS - Perhaps I read the meaning of your questions incorrectly. Is it really a case of you knowing all of this and simply egging him on for the fun of it?

 

Yes, my daily driver is a F/awd '01 RX300. I cannot truly claim the full "awd" aspect (TC still works) since the VC has apparently now failed at ~70,000 miles. My RX runs on nice and quiet, comfortably riding, summer use tires all year around but with a set of tire chains always on board to be installed on the REAR in case of need. Both sets in winter.

[bbf2530]

Yes, my daily driver is a F/awd '01 RX300. I cannot truly claim the full "awd" aspect (TC still works) since the VC has apparently now failed at ~70,000 miles. My RX runs on nice and quiet, comfortably riding, summer use tires all year around but with a set of tire chains always on board to be installed on the REAR in case of need. Both sets in winter.

 

Hi wwest. :D To politely address your statements concerns, as you politely did mine (and I appreciate that, as I did not know what to expect). My time is short at the moment, so I will try to be brief:

 

Let mention first that this is really getting off course from the original question posted by dadrett. No one is going to change their car or driving habits based on what you or I say here. We are spitting in the wind.

 

So, to your comments concerning my comments :

 

1 - "SLAMMING....TOO LOW...

 

Why do you feel it necessary to quote such EXTREME conditions...??"

 

Okay, remove the word slam, and insert "shift", making it "shifting a car into a too low gear at higher speeds in a low traction condition...". Statement no longer "extreme" and still correct. So for future reference, nitpicking or word parsing is futile, okay? I will not do it to you, if you do not do it to me :grouphug:

 

2 - The new VW FWD stick shift uses a TC technique that will simply "up-rev" the engine to match roadspeed if one of the driven wheels develops slippage due to the use of too much engine compression braking. We ALL know, or at least should know, that a simple release of pressure on the gas pedal in the wrong conditions can quickly result in loss of directional control, FWD or RWD.

 

Almost all modern SelectShift type transmissions match revs. And a simple release of pressure will not cause any problems for any driver unless they are driving too fast for the road conditions. You neglect to mention that little factoid. In addition, you forgot to bring up all of the "wrong conditions" dangers of RWD (i.e the sheer joy of all the RWD oversteer dangers inherent in throttle applications in a multitude of road and driving conditions). All of which are essentially absent in FWD vehicles. Bottom line, in on-road driving conditions (non-race course), FWD and AWD are comparatively "idiot proof" compared to a RWD car. Hey, given my preferences, I prefer a nice high-powered RWD car. But I will not skew the information I provide to fit my preferences. And those who know me here also know that.

 

3 - "The advantage goes to RWD simply because directional control can still be maintained."

 

An average or below average driver (covers the majority of drivers on the road) with a RWD car in any sort or slippery conditions is more prone to throttle or braking induced oversteer than any FWD vehicle driver. Even one of below average skills. This is common knowledge. Advantage really does go to FWD. Again, I prefer a nice high-powered RWD car. But I will not skew the information I provide to fit my preferences.

 

4 - "Yes, YES..."

 

Yes to what? Not sure what you are replying to there. All cars on the road today are unsafe?

 

5 - "So, how many people out there in the general public are aware that vehicles with ABS are slightly less safe then those without...??

 

Vehicles with ABS are safer than non-ABS vehicles. Drivers who do not know how to drive are the problem. They either do not fully apply the brakes, or neglect to steer out of harms way. I had a friend who insisted that when the brake pedal pulsed in his ABS equipped car, that meant he was supposed to let up and pump the brakes. Took a long time and quite a bit of convincing to get him to understand otherwise. There is no underestimating the ignorance of some people concerning certain subjects. And he is my friend, an intelligent individual otherwise! But it says something about the lack of automotive knowledge of the average driver nowadays

 

6 - "So, other than VSC activation or judious application of the rear implimented e-brake, what is your method for recovering from the most dangerous handling tendency of FWD (understear/plowing)...??"

 

Yes, I know the answer to the quiz. And let's be realistic, even if I did not know the answer, a quick Google would have given me a wonderful answer to copy and paste here. I could pose the same question to you concerning RWD and throttle and/or steering induced oversteer in dry and inclement road conditions. But as I said earlier, not going to get into long winded treatises on driving theory and other aspects of this subject.

 

Again, just quick replies to the basics. May have missed a point or two (for lack of time, not a valid reply), and misspelled a few words in my haste, but have other more pressing things to do for now.

 

As I often say to people who make claims as to their opinion on a subject that seems to be so close to their hearts (and I clearly stated in my previous reply to dadrett concerning this subject): Please simply provide a link to some professional, verifiable website or source corroborating your point of view on the subject. Especially when it is the polar opposite from the accepted facts contained on or from any professional automotive source. Then we will have something more to go on than just one persons word. And one last time, I prefer a nice high-powered RWD car. But I will not skew the information I provide to fit my preferences. I always have an open mind.

 

But really, as you can see neither of us is going to be short on answers. So why don't we move on to simply helping other people and leave the personal agendas to someone else?

 

And actually, as I also mentioned above this all has very little to do with the OP's (dadrett) original question. I know you think it does strongly relate, since this seems to be a subject close to your heart. But if you take a step away and look at it in an unbiased manner, I think you will see that we are really off course.

 

Let's just drop it. It's a double dead end (I know one when I see it and hope you do too).

 

Good luck. :beerchug:

Edited June 19, 2009 by bbf2530

[wwest]

My "mission" here is to inform and educate those in our audience with an open mind.

 

Save a few lives even.

 

Insofar as I can see that has now been accomplished.

[bbf2530]

My "mission" here is to inform and educate those in our audience with an open mind.

 

Save a few lives even.

 

Insofar as I can see that has now been accomplished.

 

Hi wwest. :D That is fantastic. Then we can move on to helping others, concerning a new subject. :hyper:

 

Good luck. :beerchug:

[wwest]

Hi wwest. :D To politely address your statements concerns, as you politely did mine (and I appreciate that, as I did not know what to expect). My time is short at the moment, so I will try to be brief:

 

Let mention first that this is really getting off course from the original question posted by dadrett. No one is going to change their car or driving habits based on what you or I say here. We are spitting in the wind.

 

So, to your comments concerning my comments :

 

1 - "SLAMMING....TOO LOW...

 

Why do you feel it necessary to quote such EXTREME conditions...??"

 

Okay, remove the word slam, and insert "shift", making it "shifting a car into a too low gear at higher speeds in a low traction condition...".

 

And what if you happen to be unaware of a low traction condition, say a patch of black ice around an uphill curve that requires a downshift, on a comfortably warm day after a COLD night shadowed by nearby trees.

 

Yes, one would be quite FOOLISH to downshift a FWD or RWD knowing of low traction conditions..

 

Statement no longer "extreme" and still correct. So for future reference, nitpicking or word parsing is futile, okay? I will not do it to you, if you do not do it to me :grouphug:

 

2 - The new VW FWD stick shift uses a TC technique that will simply "up-rev" the engine to match roadspeed if one of the driven wheels develops slippage due to the use of too much engine compression braking. We ALL know, or at least should know, that a simple release of pressure on the gas pedal in the wrong conditions can quickly result in loss of directional control, FWD or RWD.

 

Almost all modern SelectShift type transmissions match revs. And a simple release of pressure will not cause any problems for any driver unless they are driving too fast for the road conditions. You neglect to mention that little factoid. In addition, you forgot to bring up all of the "wrong conditions" dangers of RWD (i.e the sheer joy of all the RWD oversteer dangers inherent in throttle applications in a multitude of road and driving conditions). All of which are essentially absent in FWD vehicles. Bottom line, in on-road driving conditions (non-race course), FWD and AWD are comparatively "idiot proof" compared to a RWD car. Hey, given my preferences, I prefer a nice high-powered RWD car. But I will not skew the information I provide to fit my preferences. And those who know me here also know that.

 

"SelectShift type"

 

Yes, a form of double clutching, that.

 

The new VW technique involves a purely manual transmission and like the SelectShift "simulation" the driver is quite free to use an actual double-clutching technique for downshifting. But the NEW VW technique of which I "speak" involves a reactive up-rev procedure to help maintain directional control if wheelspin/slip results from a downshift wherein the driver is for some reason unaware of the too low traction conditions.

 

3 - "The advantage goes to RWD simply because directional control can still be maintained."

 

An average or below average driver (covers the majority of drivers on the road) with a RWD car in any sort or slippery conditions is more prone to throttle or braking induced oversteer than any FWD vehicle driver. Even one of below average skills. This is common knowledge. Advantage really does go to FWD. Again, I prefer a nice high-powered RWD car. But I will not skew the information I provide to fit my preferences.

 

"..An average or below average driver..."

 

 

Speaking of John/Jane Q Public...??

 

Funny how it was/is that TC begun to be implemented on RWD vehicles long before it became common on FWD where it was clearly most/more needed/required.

 

But you are correct, a properly trained or experienced driver will always be more at home with the handling dynamics of a RWD or R/awd vehicle.

 

That's my point, and I do appreciate you're helping to make it.

 

Maybe one day soon we will have driver training simulators much like today's flight simulators and those average drivers can learn just how deadly FWD can turn, quickly turn, without actual roadway experience.

 

4 - "Yes, YES..."

 

Yes to what? Not sure what you are replying to there. All cars on the road today are unsafe?

 

5 - "So, how many people out there in the general public are aware that vehicles with ABS are slightly less safe then those without...??

 

Vehicles with ABS are safer than non-ABS vehicles. Drivers who do not know how to drive are the problem. They either do not fully apply the brakes, or neglect to steer out of harms way. I had a friend who insisted that when the brake pedal pulsed in his ABS equipped car, that meant he was supposed to let up and pump the brakes. Took a long time and quite a bit of convincing to get him to understand otherwise. There is no underestimating the ignorance of some people concerning certain subjects. And he is my friend, an intelligent individual otherwise! But it says something about the lack of automotive knowledge of the average driver nowadays

 

"...why...??"

 

 

The "why" of it, non-ABS cars being slightly less safe than ABS equipped cars, seems to boil down to the statistical fact that ABS equipped cars have a much higher incidence of single vehicle run off the road accidents.

 

6 - "So, other than VSC activation or judious application of the rear implimented e-brake, what is your method for recovering from the most dangerous handling tendency of FWD (understear/plowing)...??"

 

Yes, I know the answer to the quiz. And let's be realistic, even if I did not know the answer, a quick Google would have given me a wonderful answer to copy and paste here. I could pose the same question to you concerning RWD and throttle and/or steering induced oversteer in dry and inclement road conditions. But as I said earlier, not going to get into long winded treatises on driving theory and other aspects of this subject.

 

"...could pose the same question.."

 

In reality you cannot.

 

With a RWD in a skid/overstearing condition our natural human reaction, lift the throttle, will often serve to COMPLETELY alleviate the problem.

 

Whereas with FWD that natural human reaction alone will often serve only to exacerbate the situation. Look at the AAA recommendation, "owners should practice QUICKLY shifting an automatic transmission into neutral in case of loss of control on a low traction surface". Or look into what these new stability systems do AUTOMATICALLY upon detection of understearing/plowing. Rear braking is used, ALWAYS used, along with engine dethrottling.

 

Again, just quick replies to the basics. May have missed a point or two (for lack of time, not a valid reply), and misspelled a few words in my haste, but have other more pressing things to do for now.

 

As I often say to people who make claims as to their opinion on a subject that seems to be so close to their hearts (and I clearly stated in my previous reply to dadrett concerning this subject): Please simply provide a link to some professional, verifiable website or source corroborating your point of view on the subject. Especially when it is the polar opposite from the accepted facts contained on or from any professional automotive source. Then we will have something more to go on than just one persons word. And one last time, I prefer a nice high-powered RWD car. But I will not skew the information I provide to fit my preferences. I always have an open mind.

 

"..provide a link..."

 

 

No links are required when providing perfectly logical information to those with minds open enough to listen.

 

But really, as you can see neither of us is going to be short on answers. So why don't we move on to simply helping other people and leave the personal agendas to someone else?

 

And here I was thinking everything I stated was in the course, cause, of helping other people.

 

And actually, as I also mentioned above this all has very little to do with the OP's (dadrett) original question. I know you think it does strongly relate, since this seems to be a subject close to your heart. But if you take a step away and look at it in an unbiased manner, I think you will see that we are really off course.

 

Let's just drop it. It's a double dead end (I know one when I see it and hope you do too).

 

Good luck. :beerchug:

 

Sorry, just couldn't leave the untruths lay.

Edited June 24, 2009 by wwest