Ford Edge 3.5L engine vibration NOT related to any common issues

[Gregg]

(Please note "CAPITAL" letters are meant for emphasis, not "yelling")...  2010 Edge 122,000 miles. Maintained ridiculously meticulously (i.e. "Synthetic oil changes at 5000 miles, etc").  Ran perfectly, and still _performs_ perfectly since purchased.  The problem is VERY specific.  Engine vibration ONLY at LOW IDLE. No vibration at all UNTIL it drops to low idle.  Before you suggest Throttle Body Plate cleaning and MAF sensors, spark plugs, coils, loose hoses, and even driveshafts... The ONLY thing not recently replaced and/or serviced is "fuel injector cleaning". (However, I do use Techron regularly), and the engine's acceleration is as flawless as is the way the entire drivetrain runs ANYWHERE ABOVE LOW IDLE SPEED; (it's flawlessly perfect).  No engine light, no codes, no DTCs.  Lastly, after dealing with this, and ruling EVERYTHING OUT since last October, 3 weeks ago I paid the Ford Dealership that I trust the most 3 HOURS Diagnostic time (4 days in the shop) to tell me they can't find anything wrong with it, while acknowledging the problem is (quote) "definitely noticeable."  On my paperwork it actually stated "Mechanic's best guess is a binding exhaust 'Flex Pipe'."  (They wanted $1000 just for the cost of the front pipe, not including labor, which I would have approved, except my entire exhaust should have been be replaced rather than welding a new front pipe to a worn rear exhaust system).  So,  I ordered an entire new front to back exhaust system which I installed myself; (I'm getting too old for exhaust system work, but at least is was a total R&R installation).  The moment I dropped that front "Y pipe",  I knew the Ford Mechanic was wrong, based on how VERY freely that entire flex pipe was moving.  Sure enough, the new exhaust system made NO DIFFERENCE WHATSOEVER.  In fact, everything attempted has made NO DIFFERENCE WHATSOEVER.  When you make an adjustment and/or repair and/or change a part and the result is that it doesn't make _ANY_ change regarding symptoms, it means everything you just did was 100% NOT THE PROBLEM; otherwise it would make SOME DIFFERENCE; (or perhaps even make it "worse").  // Here's the important part of this story... The engine was running perfectly (no vibration whatsoever since the day I bought it), right up until I noticed the lower "Torsion Mount" was worn out.  I replaced it, and upon starting the engine and the engine lowering down to low idle, THAT WAS WHEN THE VIBRATION STARTED; (as soon as it dropped to low idle). It is exactly the same in neutral as it is while in gear, but it ONLY HAPPENS AT LOW IDLE. Now, I would not be here if I hadn't already tried replacing BOTH upper mounts.  Neither of them appeared to be bad, and the replacement mounts made NO DIFFERENCE WHATSOEVER.   One of the reasons I'm here is because I just read, on an old and no longer active thread, that aftermarket motor mounts can be "too stiff"???  If that's the case, keep in mind that the UPPER MOUNT replacements made NO DIFFERENCE WHATSOEVER.  So... my "bottom line" question is... "Can a "too stiff" aftermarket TORSION MOUNT (BY ITSELF) be causing all of this???  IT ALL STARTED THE MOMENT I REPLACED IT.  (Ford said it looked fine).   // Ps... While I'm here, I like to know if I'm WRONG about the following:  The only complaint I stated to Ford about their diagnostic service was that I _specifically_ asked them to confirm any issues with TIMING.  They first replied that I didn't ask for that, which is a lie because it was clearly written on my service request. (That was a dumb, easily provable lie, on their part).  Then they replied that because there were no codes nor (relative) DTCs, that meant "nothing wrong."  I replied that a good mechanic would have used a computer to do a "snapshot recording" of the timing while the engine was vibrating at low idle.  (My computer is capable of doing that, but I've never done it myself, so I wanted TO PAY the "Pro's" to do it for me).  They replied that they don't do that unless the computer says there's a problem.  (Here's where I need to know if I'm wrong)... I replied that the computer is programmed to catch problems OUTSIDE of a preset limit.  So, if the timing was fluctuating only slightly BELOW that limit, the computer would not record an error until it gets bad enough.  They repeated their claim that no codes means no problems with timing.  My gut tells me I'm right, and that they are making excuses because they were too lazy/busy to do it).  When they told me I never asked for a timing confirmation, THAT was a BIG red flag regarding anything else they said.  So... am I correct that THEY SHOULD HAVE DONE the timing "snapshot" WITHOUT the vehicle's computer throwing a code???; (especially that I was PAYING FOR THEIR TIME). 

[garycrist]

They all vibrate as they are V6 engines or really 2, 3 cylinder engines on a common crankshaft.

The days of an even or odd fire V6 and engine vibrations! When the idle gets too low is when

one will notice it the most.(my '08 does it too and buzzes like a swarm of bees)

The firing pulses between the firing events, are so short in crankshaft degrees that at a low speed

vibrations are more noticeable.

 

This will help one understand the problems w/ V6 engines.

 

 

[handfiler]

Quote

"Can a "too stiff" aftermarket TORSION MOUNT (BY ITSELF) be causing all of this???

I think the obvious answer is yes. Reinstall the old one and see what happens.

 

[Gregg]

handfiler...  The old torsion mount is long gone.  There was NO RUBBER at all (truly none) in the front (forward) section of the mount.  Reinstalling the old one (which I don't have.  It was replaced last October)... would be the equivalent of simply removing the new one and running the engine _without_ one installed.  I suspect the vibration _would_ go away with no torsion mount installed, because it all started when i installed the new mount.  The _REAL_ question is... Would a "genuine Ford" torsion mount NOT cause the vibration.? My gut tells me the vibration would be the same with any brand torsion mount. I was looking to see if anyone has had this same experience, AND could confirm the vibration stopped when the aftermarket part was replaced with a genuine Ford part.  I honestly think (just my opinion) that there is no such thing as "too stiff rubber" that could cause THIS LEVEL of vibration.  However, my "opinion" is about as "certain" as your "opinion."  (Meaning, I need someone who has actually done this and resolved it by using a genuine Ford mount).  Which brings me to garycrist's reply...

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I understand what you are saying (In 1986 I bought a 3-cylinder Chevy Sprint), but you appear to have missed the part where I stated I had ZERO vibration (none at all) before replacing that torsion mount.  The vibration is WAY (WAY WAY) BEYOND anything even remotely normal for V6 balance issues.  The Ford Dealership even confirmed this IS NOT "normal."  (They didn't even try to suggest that, which they would have given that they had to ultimately admit they couldn't find the problem... NOT that there "was no problem."  And they went so far as to state in writing that the mechanic is "guessing" that the problem could be a "binding flex pipe" which also turned out to be wrong. (Let me guess... because I installed an aftermarket Walker exhaust system, now I have an aftermarket flex pipe that is "too stiff"???).  These are not solutions.  They are excuses.  "Potential fixes" that are really just "hunch guesses" (including some of my own), which one by one, have proved to be utterly wrong.   That is why I kept writing "NO DIFFERENCE WHATSOEVER" in bold capital letters after each "repair" that made no difference whatsoever, and when I say that, I mean NO difference whatsoever. 

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I think I have a genuine engine issue (perhaps "timing" which was the only thing Ford didn't check).  The chain could have minor slack.  The Variable Valve Timing Cam Gears could have wear issues; (particularly with the "centering pin").  As I stated in my original comment, I do not believe the vehicle's computer would register MINOR fluctuations with the timing.  And even if I taught myself how to use my computer to take a timing "snapshot" at low idle, I wouldn't know what result is considered normal or abnormal. How much fluctuation with Variable Valve Timing is "normal"?  I have no idea.  That's why i wanted Ford to do it. (THEY DIDN'T)

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I genuinely appreciate your replies, but they really weren't helpful.  handfiler is guessing that it is a "stiff rubber" issue, but he doesn't know it for a fact; (it just seems to "make sense" to him, as it also does to me, but that's NOT a confirmation). I already know removal of the torsion mount will eliminate the vibration, ONLY because the engine is then free to vibrate without symptoms.  And garycrist appears to be assuming that I am complaining about a "mild" vibration.  No, ITS NASTY, and it doesn't happen at all until the engine drops down to 1100 RPMs.  In fact, at just 1200 RPM's (only 100 RPMs higher) the vibration vanishes entirely. (The Ford Mechanic AND the Service Manager both pointed out that a mere 100 RPMs higher and the problem completely vanishes). That's not "stiff rubber", unless someone who has actually resolved it with genuine Ford "loose" rubber can reply to confirm that as being an absolute fact.  Someone telling me "Yes, I had the same problem, and resolved it with a genuine Ford mount."  (That's what I am actually asking for here).  The problem has also (proven) NOT to be a "binding flex pipe" nor any other guess (including my own guesses), that have now cost me over $1500 bucks (just in parts cost + the cost of the Ford Dealer)... and all of it with "NO DIFFERENCE WHATSOEVER" .  garycrist, I need to be clear with you that this is far beyond "normal balance" issues.   It was a valid point, but if you experienced this vibration, you'd laugh at any suggestion of  "that's normal for the design." (My experience at Ford remained pleasant even though I disagreed with their excuse that "the computer says its not timing issue, therefore further tests are unnecessary."  However, if they had tried telling me that vibration was "normal" there would had been friction.  In fact, they acknowledged ON PAPER that the vibration was (quote) "definitely noticeable." (That's "Dealer-speak" for "Valid Complaint"). 

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Has anyone here actually experienced this issue AND resolved it by replacing an aftermarket Torsion Mount with a genuine Ford Torsion Mount?  (I don't mean "yes, that makes sense" opinions and I don't need videos about engine balance design to explain my WICKED vibration. (Although I will watch it, Gary... thanks).  My first job as a Dealership mechanic was in 1978 (a Rambler/Jeep Dealership). The point being, I've been around all of this for quite some time.  I'm not some kid working in his driveway... although at this point in my life I AM WORKING IN MY DRIVEWAY. (And, to be perfectly honest, I "bailed" on working for Dealerships in 1985 over flat rate pay.  The more experienced you are, the HARDER the jobs you get. They don't (or at least didn't back then) pay you for diagnostic time, so the guys doing brake jobs and oil changes were making tons more money than I did.  Come to think of it, that could be why the mechanic who "diagnosed" my Edge wasn't looking to spend much time on it.  They even admitted to me they were working on it "on and off when there wasn't other priorities ahead of it",  which is why 3 hours diagnostic time took 4 days. And considering I had waited a week for an appointment, and I was paying the same rate as any of their claimed "priorities", I absolutely feel slighted by the experience.

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Btw, I don't know if it matters, but with the hood open, the engine is NOT VISIBLY vibrating, like every Edge vibration video out there I've seen. You simply FEEL the vibration (significantly) inside the vehicle. It's _NOT_ at all "minor," but it is VERY specific.  It only happens when the engine drops to 1100 RPMs, and the vibration completely vanishes at 100 RPMs higher. (The Service manager & the Mechanic felt that was significant.  They had never before seen a mere 100 RPM increase completely eliminate a vibration).   And frankly, that's why my gut has been telling me this is a timing issue.  I think at 1100 RPMs the chain (or gears or SOMETHING timing related) is free to cause fluctuation while in low idle, but just 100 RPMs higher and that "free movement" tightens up enough to eliminate the vibration.  (For the record, that is just another GUESS, unless and until it is somehow proven.). 

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Lastly, I repeat, is there anyone at this forum that has experienced the same issue as what I am describing?  And if so, did a genuine Ford Torsion Mount resolve the problem?