auto stop and start

[nate39]

Hi, I have a 2017 Escape and and 2020 Edge Titanium.  The auto stop/start feature doesn't work in either of these cars.  On the one hand that is okay.  On the other hand it tells me something is wrong.  The Escape never worked when I bought it at 2 or 3 years old.  It worked for about a week that summer (I bought it in Jan.) then stopped and then again when I drove it out to Utah (I live in PA).  But after a day or two back home, it stopped.  I understand that everything has to be charging properly for it to work and the battery and alternator has been checked and are fine.  I drive this a lot and often 45 minutes to an hour to work and then back.  It just seems to me that this option is useless if normal driving doesn't charge it.

 

My Edge is the same.  I bought it a couple of hours away from my house.  by the time I got home it had started working but after a few days it stopped.  My wife takes this to work which is only a mile down the road, so I know that people will say that that is why.  But we also drive this for several miles 2 or 3 times a week.  So if it can't stay charged then it seems to me to be poorly designed.  Does anyone have any more info for me?  Do all manufactures have the same problems as Ford?  thanks

[edgeidiot]

I have the same problem with my 2020. Unless I drive for at least an hour, the battery doesn't recharge enough for the auto start/stop feature to work. Short trips drain it so much that even the door lock system will eventually stop working on every door except the drivers. I had to buy a battery charger. And why is the battery located where you cannot attach a regular cable to the negative post?

[lildisco]

I posted this in another thread, but:

I don't have much to back this up, but my start-stop wasn't working for months stating that it was disabled for vehicle charging. I even threw it on the battery charger for a few days & it still wouldn't work. I went into FORScan & reset the BMS & my start-stop function has returned to normal.

The car would sit for days on the charger & the start-stop function wouldn't work, even when the charger would indicate that it's in trickle mode, aka fully charged.

Figured I'd need to drive it around more, so I'd unhook it & go for a couple hours drive at highway speeds & it still wouldn't work. Got curious & went into FORScan & did a BMS reset & it's back to normal. 

As I said earlier, I don't have much to support this, but I think that the BMS lies. It was almost 3 years to the day that I purchased our 2020, (10/2020) when the start-stop feature quit due to vehicle charging. I reset the BMS in January & it's been fine ever since

[Cerberus]

there are basically two likely causes for the auto start stop to not work.

either it was disabled or there is an issue with the battery / BMS / or alternator (or belt)

supposedly the BMS will self reset with a new battery installation, but apparently not always.

 

The charging system warning was what i was seeing on my console when i shut off the vehicle.

instead of leaving systems on for several minutes after shut down, all system shut down immediately with engine shut down

What I did not yet know was my alternator (actually the pulley clutch on the alternator) was shot

There are tools and software that allow me to monitor alternator output voltage and current, which will tell you if it is able to produce the power. 

I check the data periodically now

[nate39]

thanks for the replies.  There is a popular Ford mechanic on YouTube that was showing that when you charge your battery, you have to connect the negative terminal on the side of the BMS module that is on the other side from the battery post.  Otherwise the computer doesn't see it as charging.  I think it will eventually and even if you don't you are still actually charging the battery.  But on cars like the escape and edge I think that is why they have a negative connection that has easy access.  

 

Anyway, I have done the high beam on off 5 times and push the brake pedal three times routine to reset the BMS.  The next day the auto stop might work but won't last the entire day.  I guess this is what happens when politicians tell car manufacturers how to make cars.

[TourGuide]

Have you tested the battery - with a legitimate battery tester?  I mean one that will report out to you the actual cca of your battery as it currently is?  

 

If not - it may be that your battery is perfectly capable of starting your car - but may not be capable of carrying our the start/stop function it was intended to perform.  My dealership reported to me that my battery was low on cca - but before this I had noted that the start stop would happen intermittently.  I tested my battery and found it had 390 cca - so I replaced the battery - and reset it using the process you described - as well as resetting through my scan tool.  My start/stop function has returned with the new battery and the reset.

 

Perhaps what you have is a weak battery in both cases?

Edited March 22 by TourGuide

[dabangsta]

2 hours ago, nate39 said:

thanks for the replies.  There is a popular Ford mechanic on YouTube that was showing that when you charge your battery, you have to connect the negative terminal on the side of the BMS module that is on the other side from the battery post.  Otherwise the computer doesn't see it as charging.  I think it will eventually and even if you don't you are still actually charging the battery.  But on cars like the escape and edge I think that is why they have a negative connection that has easy access.  

 

Anyway, I have done the high beam on off 5 times and push the brake pedal three times routine to reset the BMS.  The next day the auto stop might work but won't last the entire day.  I guess this is what happens when politicians tell car manufacturers how to make cars.

Resetting the BMS with an old battery is not what you should do. That tricks it into thinking that is the new full battery, and if it would continue auto start/stop eventually it won't restart.

 

You do not need to bypass the BMS when charging or jump starting, use the post on the shock tower for the negative cable.

 

I let my 2017 Escape battery go from 450 CCA (auto start/stop disabled at that point) to 225 CCA, it still started fine (but no auto start/stop), but I couldn't listen the radio with the engine off. I carried a jump box with me, but I replaced it once another driver started driving it again and we went on a long trip. Auto start/stop didn't start working with new battery until BMS reset, but I could listen to music without it turning off immediately.

[JoeVic]

4 hours ago, dabangsta said:

Resetting the BMS with an old battery is not what you should do. That tricks it into thinking that is the new full battery, and if it would continue auto start/stop eventually it won't restart.

 

You do not need to bypass the BMS when charging or jump starting, use the post on the shock tower for the negative cable.

 

I let my 2017 Escape battery go from 450 CCA (auto start/stop disabled at that point) to 225 CCA, it still started fine (but no auto start/stop), but I couldn't listen the radio with the engine off. I carried a jump box with me, but I replaced it once another driver started driving it again and we went on a long trip. Auto start/stop didn't start working with new battery until BMS reset, but I could listen to music without it turning off immediately.

 

      You are one of the few people commenting on this that is absolutely correct.  I am seeing many people on different Face Book Edge Groups recommending the BMS reset.  This is totally incorrect. 

 

      One thing that people should look at is the Battery State of Charge.  I have found that under 70% SOG my Auto Stop/Start will not engage.   The battery and vehicle is otherwise satisfactory.    

[nate39]

8 hours ago, dabangsta said:

Resetting the BMS with an old battery is not what you should do. That tricks it into thinking that is the new full battery, and if it would continue auto start/stop eventually it won't restart.

 

You do not need to bypass the BMS when charging or jump starting, use the post on the shock tower for the negative cable.

 

I let my 2017 Escape battery go from 450 CCA (auto start/stop disabled at that point) to 225 CCA, it still started fine (but no auto start/stop), but I couldn't listen the radio with the engine off. I carried a jump box with me, but I replaced it once another driver started driving it again and we went on a long trip. Auto start/stop didn't start working with new battery until BMS reset, but I could listen to music without it turning off immediately.

 Thanks for the info.  I think using the post on the shock tower is an example of by passing the negative post; you have to be on the other side of the BMS modual.

[Tim W. AZ]

After reading several battery related topics, I found my old Scan Gage and plugged it in. The last time it was used was in 2012 with my C-Max Energi. Anyway, it indicated I was at 14.6v so I feel good... for now. The AZ desert it tough on batteries.

[akirby]

23 hours ago, lildisco said:

I posted this in another thread, but:

I don't have much to back this up, but my start-stop wasn't working for months stating that it was disabled for vehicle charging. I even threw it on the battery charger for a few days & it still wouldn't work. I went into FORScan & reset the BMS & my start-stop function has returned to normal.

The car would sit for days on the charger & the start-stop function wouldn't work, even when the charger would indicate that it's in trickle mode, aka fully charged.

Figured I'd need to drive it around more, so I'd unhook it & go for a couple hours drive at highway speeds & it still wouldn't work. Got curious & went into FORScan & did a BMS reset & it's back to normal. 

As I said earlier, I don't have much to support this, but I think that the BMS lies. It was almost 3 years to the day that I purchased our 2020, (10/2020) when the start-stop feature quit due to vehicle charging. I reset the BMS in January & it's been fine ever since

When you charge it you have to put the negative cable on the body not on the battery.  That way the charging goes through the battery sensor.

[lildisco]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

When you charge it you have to put the negative cable on the body not on the battery.  That way the charging goes through the battery sensor.

That's how I always have done it as the negative side of the battery isn't easy to get to. 

 

Start-stop still works for ~ 2 months so far after resetting the BMS. I haven't looked at the battery state of charge, but I can if the issue pops up again. 

[STBEAST]

I think auto start stop is nothing more than a way to prematurely wear out your battery, starter and flywheel ring gear. You don't save any fuel and it is nothing more than a scam. Be glad it does not work. In the end, you will save money.

[garycrist]

Also, coke the turbos! Even my wife lets it idle for 2 minutes to cool down and un-spool the turbos.

[Cerberus]

5 hours ago, garycrist said:

Also, coke the turbos! Even my wife lets it idle for 2 minutes to cool down and un-spool the turbos.

if yours has remote start, set it to the lowest time (5 min usually) and just use that as a cool down run.

Thats how i let it cool down when i've been high tailing it to work, and need to go hit the clock.

[nate39]

10 hours ago, STBEAST said:

I think auto start stop is nothing more than a way to prematurely wear out your battery, starter and flywheel ring gear. You don't save any fuel and it is nothing more than a scam. Be glad it does not work. In the end, you will save money.

👍

[JoeVic]

23 hours ago, STBEAST said:

I think auto start stop is nothing more than a way to prematurely wear out your battery, starter and flywheel ring gear. You don't save any fuel and it is nothing more than a scam. Be glad it does not work. In the end, you will save money.

 While I am not a fan of the auto stop/start and usually deactivate it, his issue with it not working is most likely because of a weak battery or other electrical issue. 

[akirby]

On 3/22/2024 at 11:17 PM, STBEAST said:

I think auto start stop is nothing more than a way to prematurely wear out your battery, starter and flywheel ring gear. You don't save any fuel and it is nothing more than a scam. Be glad it does not work. In the end, you will save money.

Not true at all.  It saves about 5% on average and I’ve noticed the difference when mine stops working.  They’ve upgraded the battery and the starter to handle the added wear.  You may not like it but it’s definitely not a scam.

[Cerberus]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

Not true at all.  It saves about 5% on average and I’ve noticed the difference when mine stops working.  They’ve upgraded the battery and the starter to handle the added wear.  You may not like it but it’s definitely not a scam.

I won't say its a scam exactly, but especially depending on your individual use, it is a feature of highly questionable utility and value.

I'd rather pay for fuel than starters, batteries, alternators, etc

Tell us how exactly they upgraded the starter to handle the wear? 

Because I'd bet good hard money that the same exact part number is used whether the vehicle has auto start/stop on it or not.

 

I can tell you at least on the vehicles that I work on every day (not Ford), the first year of our roll out had the start stop feature and a button to turn it off, and a big ass H8 battery under the seat.

Later years no longer have the auto start/stop, but had the same alternator, same battery and same starter..

I've had to replace a couple starters already, and a few alternators, and the now 3 year old batteries are all nearing the end of their service life from the extra charge/ discharge cycles they had to do.

[Tim W. AZ]

The system and components are designed to work without wearing itself out. Yes, it's mechanical and electronic and those things do wear out, but unless there's a flaw in an individual part, it will last as long as needed. Around here, you can sit at a multi intersection light for 2-3 minutes, so if the engine isn't running, I'm not burning fuel.

[dabangsta]

The starter is significantly different between a auto start/stop equipped vehicle and one without it. It seems like the non auto start/stop is higher rated (1.6kw) but physically they look a lot different. I don't know if there is more/less gear reduction, it is rated lower but is built to handle the 10x times it will be used.

 

Most non auto start/stop vehicles don't have AGM batteries (look at some year Fusions when the 2.0 was available with or without auto start/stop, like 2017).

 

On my 2017 Escape I could start to detect a sound difference when it would restart, but it never felt like it wouldn't restart, that was only up to 100,000 miles, as it was totaled. It is much more seamless in my 2019 Edge with only 80,000 miles on it now. I know it is happening, but no shake or noise happens.

 

I don't really like it because in my environment the cabin gets too warm too quickly with the engine off, the angle of the steering wheel needs to be extreme to not shut off (making a left turn at an unprotected turn lane through traffic), and that .2 seconds the driver next to has at taking off from a light means I might lose (not really...I anticipate the green light watching the cross light and let off the brake right before it goes green!).

[Tim W. AZ]

2 minutes ago, dabangsta said:

I don't really like it because in my environment the cabin gets too warm too quickly with the engine off...

I've given this some thought, living where it's 110 many days. I believe that if the ambient temperature is too high and the AC is needed to cool the cabin or the radiator fan is running, those needs will override the stop/start feature. 

[garycrist]

210K miles on my '08 Edge, it still has the original belts, hoses,starter and alternator and running strong.

I believe the newer starters use permanent magnets rather than field windings.

[dabangsta]

21 minutes ago, Tim W. AZ said:

I've given this some thought, living where it's 110 many days. I believe that if the ambient temperature is too high and the AC is needed to cool the cabin or the radiator fan is running, those needs will override the stop/start feature. 

When it is that hot (I live in Tucson) it won't stop. But when it is 85 degrees and the sun is beating down in through the windshield and it is blowing warm air, it gets annoying. There is a list of things that are required for it to actually stop. Ambient Temperature of moderate is all it says, and also cabin temperature is checked if it is sufficiently cooled (or heated). Defroster on will disable it, and coolant needs to be up to temp (which happens in 1 minute or less year around here).

[STBEAST]

I purchased the Ford extended warranty and one of the items that is not covered, the Flywheel Ring Gear.  Red flag to me.

If it saves you money on fuel that is definitely a plus, although at idle there is hardly any fuel being used. I just can't imagine that over time, the mechanical wear and tear would override the fuel savings. 

I read the system was forced on the automobile industry by the Federal Government to help with emissions and save on fuel consumption. Combine that with the erratic shutting off/starting of the vehicle (remember the transmission is still in gear) I'm just so glad we have the option to deactivate it on start-up. Especially in warm weather. Gotta be a bit taxing on the AC system??  Thanks for all the different opinions on this. Please correct me if I am wrong on any of this.