Question oil catch can contents

[Jacob Wind]

Hi all! Went out to check fluids on my 2019 Ford Edge ST today with 41,000 miles and found the catch can to be nearly full after 2,000 miles and what looked to be teflon tape inside? Didn’t find any magnetic contents. Wanted to see if anyone has seen this before. Thanks!

[Cerberus]

Perfectly normal.

Surprising to have that much in there that quickly, but that just means you should set a reminder to check it every 1,000 miles

the white milky garbage is oil and water mixed up. 

[STBEAST]

I think there would be a lot of factors attributed to how much oil you would see in a catch can. How many miles are on the vehicle, driving conditions, how the vehicle is driven and maybe even type of oil would be factors??  I have a 2024 Edge St and I plan to do more research before I decide if I will install one.

One thing I thought about, wouldn't this oil have some benefit to provide lubrication to the intake valve? I know the carbon buildup is an issue, but the amount of buildup seems to vary greatly from brand of vehicle and model of vehicle. In other words, it seems to not be an issue with certain brands/types of direct injection vehicles. Maybe some would benefit from a catch can, and some would benefit from the lubrication???  I don't know much about it to give an honest opinion.

[Cerberus]

41 minutes ago, STBEAST said:

I think there would be a lot of factors attributed to how much oil you would see in a catch can. How many miles are on the vehicle, driving conditions, how the vehicle is driven and maybe even type of oil would be factors??  I have a 2024 Edge St and I plan to do more research before I decide if I will install one.

One thing I thought about, wouldn't this oil have some benefit to provide lubrication to the intake valve? I know the carbon buildup is an issue, but the amount of buildup seems to vary greatly from brand of vehicle and model of vehicle. In other words, it seems to not be an issue with certain brands/types of direct injection vehicles. Maybe some would benefit from a catch can, and some would benefit from the lubrication???  I don't know much about it to give an honest opinion.

Yes, there are factors that effect catch can filling.

There is a measured specification of oil volatility at temperature which, if it is one of the very volatile ones, you will get more oil vapor, and in cold weather, more condensation of that vapor to make oil collection to fill the cup faster.

There are also the variables of fuel/air mixture and ring seal which each separately effect (a), how much water is generated from combustion, and (b), how much of that water gets past the rings and into the crankcase.

And again, under-hood temps will effect the rate at which it condenses in the catch can. 

 

Regarding the lubrication question, port fuel injectors keep intake valves clean which helps maintain normal flow dynamics, which is everything for engine performance and stability.

Our eco-boost motors, (at least the 2.7) do not have port injectors, so without a catch can, the oil will collect and coke up on the back of the valve and stem.

on vehicles that DO have port injectors (or TBIs or carburetors for that matter), they would wash away any oil film, so lubrication is really not a factor here. 

Port fuel injectors also cause some amount of cooling of the valve, which is helpful as an addition to the air cooling of the incoming air charge for the valve.

Similarly, the oil/water that the normal (no catch can) engine lets back into the intake could benefit the intake valves on some level, but the carbon accumulation as a consequence is a definite negative.

 

[garycrist]

Anything one can do to eliminate carbon build-up in the intake path is worth GOLD!

Depending on the fuel quality from the distributor and the additive package that are blended in,

either at the point of sale (Costco) or the source, build-up can be mitigated depending on the

additive package.

 

Ford specifies TT type fuel which has P.E.A. detergent, Shell w/ Nitrogen, Techron Costco to name a few.

Most have P.B.A. but, it will not get rid of the high temp gunk on the valves etc. like P.E.A. The catch can is

cheap insurance for a KNOWN PROBLEM. But hey, like the "Fram Man" should have said "You can pay me now

and you can pay me later". How much later depends on you.

 

For the "Tech Wienies" who want to know why, here we go.

5W-30 motor oil is thin and gets thinner as it heats. I do not care for

the 30 part as it only goes to the "holding ability" to keep parts apart.

With thinner ring packs, short skirts (I like short skirts), thin oil, high R.P.M.

and  turbo boost will produce tons of blow-by. It consists of misted oil

whipped up in the crank case by the crankshaft spinning and leakage

of combustion products and coked oil that was burned about the 2nd. ring

on down the piston skirt.

 

Remember those "short skirts"? Well at high R.P.M. they allow "piston rock"

where the piston is not square to the bore. With the wider gap in the rings to prevent

them butting together and piston rock, excess "blow-by" is produced ! In our turbo engines

that gap has to be wider than a N.A. engine.

That gap provides extra "blow-by" that we are trying to cut down with the catch can.

[1004ron]

On 3/9/2024 at 2:19 PM, Jacob Wind said:

Hi all! Went out to check fluids on my 2019 Ford Edge ST today with 41,000 miles and found the catch can to be nearly full after 2,000 miles and what looked to be teflon tape inside? Didn’t find any magnetic contents. Wanted to see if anyone has seen this before. Thanks!

In winter mine will fill up in much less than 2,000 miles - I suspect yours has been overflowing for some time.

 

I get the same emulsion in my 2017 Sport and empty it every second or third tank of gas during the winter months and in the warm climate I'll double that interval.

 

The teflon must have been from the catch can assembly, and there's no way magnetic particles are going to make their way into the catch can.

[Cerberus]

48 minutes ago, garycrist said:

Anything one can do to eliminate carbon build-up in the intake path is worth GOLD!

Depending on the fuel quality from the distributor and the additive package that are blended in,

either at the point of sale (Costco) or the source, build-up can be mitigated depending on the

additive package.

 

Ford specifies TT type fuel which has P.E.A. detergent, Shell w/ Nitrogen, Techron Costco to name a few.

Most have P.B.A. but, it will not get rid of the high temp gunk on the valves etc. like P.E.A. The catch can is

cheap insurance for a KNOWN PROBLEM. But hey, like the "Fram Man" should have said "You can pay me now

and you can pay me later". How much later depends on you.

 

For the "Tech Wienies" who want to know why, here we go.

5W-30 motor oil is thin and gets thinner as it heats. I do not care for

the 30 part as it only goes to the "holding ability" to keep parts apart.

With thinner ring packs, short skirts (I like short skirts), thin oil, high R.P.M.

and  turbo boost will produce tons of blow-by. It consists of misted oil

whipped up in the crank case by the crankshaft spinning and leakage

of combustion products and coked oil that was burned about the 2nd. ring

on down the piston skirt.

 

Remember those "short skirts"? Well at high R.P.M. they allow "piston rock"

where the piston is not square to the bore. With the wider gap in the rings to prevent

them butting together and piston rock, excess "blow-by" is produced ! In our turbo engines

that gap has to be wider than a N.A. engine.

That gap provides extra "blow-by" that we are trying to cut down with the catch can.

fuel cleaners etc are of no use for valve cleaning on direct injected engines.. unless there are supplemental port injectors.. because the fuel never gets into the induction plenum / ports

 

if you want to get in to the real tech weenie level, you need to understand that different oils of THE SAME VISCOSITY, will entirely different volatility rates, and this is the primary part of the oil caught by the catch can system.

https://www.bestsynthetic.com/volatility.shtml

 

A full synthetic of high quality will resist coking more than some garbage blended synthetic, which will minimize coking on rings, intake valves etc

 

and the catch can does nothing about blow by, it just collects oil and water (ETC) before it can get to the valves. The blow by still happens.

Edited March 10 by Cerberus
Clarity

[garycrist]

Volatility rates of oils was fun back in the 80's. When the valve cover started leaking

on client's cars. 1st. thing I would ask was if it was Pennzoil or Quaker State. They were

paraffin based and left the covers filled with crud! I've stuck with synthetics since the 70's.

Ashless like AeroShell was the same thing in the Valvoline Racing but with different additive packages

with Valvoline having more ZDP. AeroShell was GREAT for oil burners too!

 

I still add a quart or two of Valvoline Racing (high ZDP) to my oil changes to my 08 Edge with 210,00 miles. That

seemed to quiet down the cam phasers. With all of the metal pieces crushed together to make the cams move,

i looked at them just like flat tappet cam contact that need extra protection and the ZDP.

[Jacob Wind]

Thanks everyone for the feedback and insight! I’ve decided to go ahead and do a fresh oil change this week and from here on out check the catch can especially in the winter after every handful of gas fill ups. Ive had catch cans on cars in the past but never with this same result. Definitely interesting stuff. 

[STBEAST]

Yes, Thank you for all the great information.

One thing I don't quite understand, Ford recommends using their brand of Semi Synthetic oil. I know they want to sell product, but why wouldn't they recommend full synthetic. I asked the dealer and they said it is what ford recommends. Seems like with a twin turbo high rpm application, full synthetic would be the way to go?? 

[Cerberus]

1 hour ago, STBEAST said:

Yes, Thank you for all the great information.

One thing I don't quite understand, Ford recommends using their brand of Semi Synthetic oil. I know they want to sell product, but why wouldn't they recommend full synthetic. I asked the dealer and they said it is what ford recommends. Seems like with a twin turbo high rpm application, full synthetic would be the way to go?? 

I agree with you.

I suspect their logic falls in the thought of being just good enough to last the duration of the warranty.. 

[garycrist]

I always figured Ford sold part and cars! An example from a few years ago was the Corvette sales story.

Sales of the cars themselves were not stellar and the brass thought about scrapping that line. That was

until they found out they sold way more Corvette parts than cars and the parts were VERY profitable!

 

On the oil thing, F1 will only let the teams run no less than 10-30 and burn only so much per mile/KM. The oil

is used as a power adder etc. as it burns! The Voodoo specs 5W-50 and one of the Shelby engines speced 0W-50!

Voodoos drank big parts of their 10 QUARTS of oil with lots of engines lost due to owner neglect!

I will probably change to a 10W-XX soon as I do not like some of the blow-by carbonation on pistons of a couple

of failed 2.7s. Mostly due to long oil changes no matter the brand of synthetics.

[Cerberus]

11 hours ago, garycrist said:

I always figured Ford sold part and cars! An example from a few years ago was the Corvette sales story.

Sales of the cars themselves were not stellar and the brass thought about scrapping that line. That was

until they found out they sold way more Corvette parts than cars and the parts were VERY profitable!

 

On the oil thing, F1 will only let the teams run no less than 10-30 and burn only so much per mile/KM. The oil

is used as a power adder etc. as it burns! The Voodoo specs 5W-50 and one of the Shelby engines speced 0W-50!

Voodoos drank big parts of their 10 QUARTS of oil with lots of engines lost due to owner neglect!

I will probably change to a 10W-XX soon as I do not like some of the blow-by carbonation on pistons of a couple

of failed 2.7s. Mostly due to long oil changes no matter the brand of synthetics.

on the subject of viscosity, i recently changed to a euro formula Mobil 1 0w-40

better flow when cold, better oil pressure when hot, and the engine definitely likes it.

oil pressure is everything when your cam timing is controlled by modulating oil pressure to a cam phaser

[handfiler]

7 hours ago, Cerberus said:

on the subject of viscosity, i recently changed to a euro formula Mobil 1 0w-40

better flow when cold, better oil pressure when hot, and the engine definitely likes it.

oil pressure is everything when your cam timing is controlled by modulating oil pressure to a cam phaser

I've been using Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W-40 in my Mustang for 2 years now after 10+ years of using Amsoil Signature 10W-30.

It could be my imagination but it seems to run quieter since I started using it. 🤷‍♂️

I think I'll switch the Nautilus over to the Euro next summer when the warranty expires.

For warranty purposes I've used Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 5W-30 since new.

[garycrist]

Thanks to all as you made me study a lot of the new technology now in what I now own.

My My how things have changed!

Low speed detonation is a real problem with DI engines like we have in our STs or especially

turbo charged engines.

 

If one lived through the fuel we had during the mid 70's, low speed detonation or pinging was a real

problem no matter the fuel grade. With that in mind and the article at the end, I understand the throttle

mode the increases throttle response and why it might not be a food idea!

 

Ever wonder where the dreadful sludge come from in the bottom of the oil pan? The viscosity improvers

that make that oil perform like a 40 weight at temperature break down to combine with the combustion

deposits.

 

The failed Echoboost motors I seen torn down YT, have shown me that oil changes and the proper oil

and high quality and octane is required. Pushing a 4500 pound vehicle with a 163 cubic inch motor that a few

years ago would be slower than a VW Micro Bus!

 

https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/oil-composition-direct-injection-low-speed-knock/

[Cerberus]

8 hours ago, handfiler said:

I've been using Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W-40 in my Mustang for 2 years now after 10+ years of using Amsoil Signature 10W-30.

It could be my imagination but it seems to run quieter since I started using it. 🤷‍♂️

I think I'll switch the Nautilus over to the Euro next summer when the warranty expires.

For warranty purposes I've used Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 5W-30 since new.

its not your imagination

I've run 5w-30, 5w-40, and a 5w-30 + 10w-40 blend (4 + 2 respectively) and now 0W-40.

The engine definitely likes (and runs quieter with) the heavier oil

That said, if your oil pump is driven by a wet belt.. the extra load might not be too advisable.. but as we know, I don't like/trust them damned things. 🤣

[Cerberus]

5 hours ago, garycrist said:

Thanks to all as you made me study a lot of the new technology now in what I now own.

My My how things have changed!

Low speed detonation is a real problem with DI engines like we have in our STs or especially

turbo charged engines.

 

If one lived through the fuel we had during the mid 70's, low speed detonation or pinging was a real

problem no matter the fuel grade. With that in mind and the article at the end, I understand the throttle

mode the increases throttle response and why it might not be a food idea!

 

Ever wonder where the dreadful sludge come from in the bottom of the oil pan? The viscosity improvers

that make that oil perform like a 40 weight at temperature break down to combine with the combustion

deposits.

 

The failed Echoboost motors I seen torn down YT, have shown me that oil changes and the proper oil

and high quality and octane is required. Pushing a 4500 pound vehicle with a 163 cubic inch motor that a few

years ago would be slower than a VW Micro Bus!

 

https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/oil-composition-direct-injection-low-speed-knock/

yeah, with 10.2:1 compression plus 20PSI of boost, its a miracle these things don't grenade, but the management system is constantly listening for any hints of ping & adjusting timing before you can even hear it.

Given that fact, I find it is good insurance to run the best fuel (93 octane Top Tier) and best oil & filter available.

"Best" is arguable and has been well-argued since the dawn of the interwebs, but my personal preferences include a true fully synthetic oil with low high-temp volatility, and a high quality synthetic media filter.

I have never seen dreadful sludge in my oil changes.. and that includes when i was running 15k intervals of my 98 Buick Riviera with the series II 3800 w supercharger.

Even though that motor was spec'ed for 5w-30, I ran Mobil 1 Red Cap 15w-50 in it from the day i bought at 115k miles, until i sold it at 205K miles, and I beat it like a red headed step child every day of its life (once fully warmed up)

It loved it. And when i did the valve cover gaskets, the internals were GD pristine. ZERO sludge.

I know that sounds like tall tales and a lot of hyperbole, but it is the absolute truth. 

[garycrist]

I sure hated people like you😜, how could I make any money on repairs!

My kids would have only eaten beans rather growing up big and strong

eating meat!🤣

Edited March 13 by garycrist

[Cerberus]

6 hours ago, garycrist said:

I sure hated people like you😜, how could I make any money on repairs!

My kids would have only eaten beans rather growing up big and strong

eating meat!🤣

one mechanic to another, I despise most of the people in this business.

There are some talented guys.. and gals i presume, but there are a whole lot of money grabbing hacks and thieves.

Mostly I blame the flat rate system for incentivizing production at all cost.. 

So conscientiousness and quality don't stand a chance.. 

 

[garycrist]

You are absolutely right about wrench turners! The problem is we are in the back and have no control 

of the thieves and liars way up front! Here is how the game is played, as the customer as well as the technition

get the wienie in the end. I was a participant when Mazda started building their "Flat-Rate Book" or how much

we could "flag" back in '72. We could only use hand tool, no air powered. WE had to clock-in and clock-out for

every job we did. They then averaged those jobs and then cut the hell out of the time!!

 

The flat-rate books were all  built around hand tools no air power. So if a technician invested in air tools, one

could beat the book most of the time. Air tools back then were expensive. It was about $100ish for a 3/8 air ratchet

and about $150-$200 for a good 1/2 impact gun. That would be about $750 for the air ratchet and $1000 to $1500

for the impact gun in today's dollars! Back then my house was red with a Snap-On plaque for an address!

 

Technicians/Mechanics just like every other profession, only have so many, for lack of a better term, artists or people

with what it takes! Just like Doctors, 50% of all Doctors graduated in the lower %50 of the class! I hate to say this but,

dealerships are where a lot of the new  guys go to PRACTICE on YOUR car but, one never winces when Doctors practice

on US.

[Cerberus]

4 hours ago, garycrist said:

You are absolutely right about wrench turners! The problem is we are in the back and have no control 

of the thieves and liars way up front! Here is how the game is played, as the customer as well as the technition

get the wienie in the end. I was a participant when Mazda started building their "Flat-Rate Book" or how much

we could "flag" back in '72. We could only use hand tool, no air powered. WE had to clock-in and clock-out for

every job we did. They then averaged those jobs and then cut the hell out of the time!!

 

The flat-rate books were all  built around hand tools no air power. So if a technician invested in air tools, one

could beat the book most of the time. Air tools back then were expensive. It was about $100ish for a 3/8 air ratchet

and about $150-$200 for a good 1/2 impact gun. That would be about $750 for the air ratchet and $1000 to $1500

for the impact gun in today's dollars! Back then my house was red with a Snap-On plaque for an address!

 

Technicians/Mechanics just like every other profession, only have so many, for lack of a better term, artists or people

with what it takes! Just like Doctors, 50% of all Doctors graduated in the lower %50 of the class! I hate to say this but,

dealerships are where a lot of the new  guys go to PRACTICE on YOUR car but, one never winces when Doctors practice

on US.

what do you call a med student who graduates at the bottom of his class?

Doctor..