Strange Brake issue

[Ford2504x4]

Hi everyone, looking for help on this, some of you may know me on  FTE  as F2504x4, so i have been around Fords for a very longtime , but this brake issue has me stumped. I have  2011 3.5 Limited 2wd with 200k. the issue started with the booster going bad, and I now have the brakes hanging up issue on all 4 corners and not fully releasing, I have probably toasted the rotors now ,   so here is a list of what  I have replaced so far  . I started with a new booster which fixed the soft pedal issue. Brakes still were not right so I replaced master cylinder twice thinking i got a bad unit, still no change, so i went and  did all the  calipers with brackets  front and rear along new rubber lines , new pads . Brake felt great as to stopping , good solid pedal but now the they do not release fully, you can feel the heat coming off all 4 corners after driving it long and short distances   No ABS light, have tested it by hitting the breaks hard forward and reverse, system works like it should , all metal lines are solid . The pedal is firm , and braking it good. What am I missing ? I have googled this and have not found a answer, any ideas I should explore ? I am at wits end here. BTW the fuel mileage has dropped down to 15 mpg when I use to get 22 plus .

Edited August 25, 2023 by Ford2504x4
spelling

[Cerberus]

  On 8/25/2023 at 5:42 PM, Ford2504x4 said:

Hi everyone, looking for help on this, some of you may know me on  FTE  as F2504x4, so i have been around Fords for a very longtime , but this brake issue has me stumped. I have  2011 3.5 Limited 2wd with 200k. the issue started with the booster going bad, and I now have the brakes hanging up issue on all 4 corners and not fully releasing, I have probably toasted the rotors now ,   so here is a list of what  I have replaced so far  . I started with a new booster which fixed the soft pedal issue. Brakes still were not right so I replaced master cylinder twice thinking i got a bad unit, still no change, so i went and  did all the  calipers with brackets  front and rear along new rubber lines , new pads . Brake felt great as to stopping , good solid pedal but now the they do not release fully, you can feel the heat coming off all 4 corners after driving it long and short distances   No ABS light, have tested it by hitting the breaks hard forward and reverse, system works like it should , all metal lines are solid . The pedal is firm , and braking it good. What am I missing ? I have googled this and have not found a answer, any ideas I should explore ? I am at wits end here. BTW the fuel mileage has dropped down to 15 mpg when I use to get 22 plus .

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Basic diagnostic process says to look at when the problem started and see what changed.

My guess would have to be that the booster installation or the booster itself is the problem.

if brake pedal travel is somehow being impeded from returning to fully back, that could cause a problem like what you are describing. 

Of course, this would generally leave the rear brake lights on, so that is something I would think you'd notice.

I dont know if there is any type of linkage adjustment or free travel spec associated with pedal position, booster drive pin etc, but that is probably where I would start.

I hate to say it, but it is possibly a bad booster, even if it is a name brand and factory fresh..

bottom line, something is not allowing the MC to get to fully returned position. 

[Ford2504x4]

  On 8/27/2023 at 12:11 PM, Cerberus said:

Basic diagnostic process says to look at when the problem started and see what changed.

My guess would have to be that the booster installation or the booster itself is the problem.

if brake pedal travel is somehow being impeded from returning to fully back, that could cause a problem like what you are describing. 

Of course, this would generally leave the rear brake lights on, so that is something I would think you'd notice.

I dont know if there is any type of linkage adjustment or free travel spec associated with pedal position, booster drive pin etc, but that is probably where I would start.

I hate to say it, but it is possibly a bad booster, even if it is a name brand and factory fresh..

bottom line, something is not allowing the MC to get to fully returned position. 

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So here is a list that has been done,

1. New brake booster and new vacuum booster line and valve  which did fix the low pedal, no brake light, booster rod is adjusted correctly

2. Now i have front brakes that are hanging up.

3 I have replaced the master cylinder ,

4 all calipers and rubber lines along with pads .

5. abs light is not on but does show when starting .

Abs does function correctly when you stop hard all 4 corners .

6 I still have a front brake dragging issue. Verified by lifting the front wheels off the ground and they will not spin freely in neutral .

Note When I redid the master cylinder, when I cracked both lines going into the master cylinder, there was fluid that squirted  out under a little bit of pressure, this seemed odd, since usually just drips. 

So maybe it is abs ?

is the propitiating valve built in to the ABS ?

Do you have reprogram the ABS when you replace it. ?

 

Edited September 13, 2023 by Ford2504x4

[Cerberus]

  On 9/13/2023 at 10:38 PM, Ford2504x4 said:

So here is a list that has been done,

1. New brake booster and new vacuum booster line and valve  which did fix the low pedal, no brake light, booster rod is adjusted correctly

2. Now i have front brakes that are hanging up.

3 I have replaced the master cylinder ,

4 all calipers and rubber lines along with pads .

5. abs light is not on but does show when starting .

Abs does function correctly when you stop hard all 4 corners .

6 I still have a front brake dragging issue. Verified by lifting the front wheels off the ground and they will not spin freely in neutral .

Note When I redid the master cylinder, when I cracked both lines going into the master cylinder, there was fluid that squirted  out under a little bit of pressure, this seemed odd, since usually just drips. 

So maybe it is abs ?

is the propitiating valve built in to the ABS ?

Do you have reprogram the ABS when you replace it. ?

 

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ok.. don't take this as disrespectful, but you are not diagnosing the problem, you are just throwing parts at it. 

in my old shop, my old supervisor would occasionally say "Load the parts cannon!" when techs would use this as a diagnostic process.

 

So, we have a lot of new parts, unnecessarily. You might think this would eliminate things from suspicion, but the opposite is true imho, because parts quality (even OEM parts quality) can be absolute shit, so new parts just add variables to the equation sometimes. This is contrary to diagnostic process, you want to remove variables to diagnose causes.

The fact that your front wheels won't spin freely when off the ground, and the brake fluid spurted when you cracked the fittings tells me you have a problem with captive pressure.

This is usually caused by brake hoses that fail internally and create a one way valve holding pressure in the caliper, but of course in this case, since it was at the MC, that is not the cause here.

(yes that's a lot of commas, fuck the grammar, i don't have time to write it more nicely)

 

Once again.. I have to say your MC is suspect. either the plunger is not being allowed to return to the full retracted position by the pedal / pushrod / mounting / bad installation / who the hell knows, or the MC is internally damaged, preventing one or both of the plunger seals from coming all the way back to uncover the port that allows fluid to flow back to the reservoir. 

 

AFAIK, there is no such thing as a propitiating valve.. and i definitely do not recommend that you screw with the ABS.. but if you do, let us know how that turns out.

 

[Ford2504x4]

  On 9/14/2023 at 10:36 AM, Cerberus said:

ok.. don't take this as disrespectful, but you are not diagnosing the problem, you are just throwing parts at it. 

in my old shop, my old supervisor would occasionally say "Load the parts cannon!" when techs would use this as a diagnostic process.

 

So, we have a lot of new parts, unnecessarily. You might think this would eliminate things from suspicion, but the opposite is true imho, because parts quality (even OEM parts quality) can be absolute shit, so new parts just add variables to the equation sometimes. This is contrary to diagnostic process, you want to remove variables to diagnose causes.

The fact that your front wheels won't spin freely when off the ground, and the brake fluid spurted when you cracked the fittings tells me you have a problem with captive pressure.

This is usually caused by brake hoses that fail internally and create a one way valve holding pressure in the caliper, but of course in this case, since it was at the MC, that is not the cause here.

(yes that's a lot of commas, fuck the grammar, i don't have time to write it more nicely)

 

Once again.. I have to say your MC is suspect. either the plunger is not being allowed to return to the full retracted position by the pedal / pushrod / mounting / bad installation / who the hell knows, or the MC is internally damaged, preventing one or both of the plunger seals from coming all the way back to uncover the port that allows fluid to flow back to the reservoir. 

 

AFAIK, there is no such thing as a propitiating valve.. and i definitely do not recommend that you screw with the ABS.. but if you do, let us know how that turns out.

 

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Thx Ceberusr  Yes i know that throwing parts at it is not the way to go, but I was dealing with different issues, the booster was bad,. Okay heres the latest and greatest  update, I did replace the master cylinder incase I got a bad one, the adjustment rod on the booster should be correct , so drove the car after a full bleed . hmm good brakes , I then hit some gravel to do  a full lock up. ABS kicked in worked as it should . but afterwards the front brakes started hanging . So I got the front wheels off the ground , put it in neutral and they will not spin freely. Put it on drive , same thing they will not rotate properly. So i then cracked the front brake  master cylinder line, no change, then when I cracked the rear line, the front wheel spun freely .

Can the braided line going to the ABS unit go bad ? I ask this because pat of it is steel then braided then goes back into steel before going into the ABS unit.

 

yup screw the grammer police ?  Thx for helping out .

[Ford2504x4]

Just more info, so I loosed up the master cylinder just to be sure the booster adj rod was not the issue , no change. pulled the ABS relay , no change after short drive  , got abs light code but they self cleared with a short drive.  both Master cylinders on the bench works like it should .

Cracked open the back line from the master cylinder at the ABS unit , no change, cracked open both front calipers no change.

thinkin about getting another set on front calipers and changing even though they are new.

[Ford2504x4]

Took it for a drive  and it started to keep the front brakes on after few stop and goes. Verified the rear (primary ) brake line from the ABS to the master cylinder is good , I cracked it open at the abs and it was holding pressure, fluid came out quickly  which it should not being doing , I could hear the brake calipers releasing as soon as I cracked it.

 

So I guess it is abs unit replacement time unless someone has any Ideas ?

[Ford2504x4]

Bump does anyone have any info to offer ?

 

[Cerberus]

  On 9/18/2023 at 2:01 PM, Ford2504x4 said:

Bump does anyone have any info to offer ?

 

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soo.. after rereading all your posts on this thread, there is a problem.

The symptoms you describe and the things that do or do not have an effect on the problem are far outside of logical.

Particularly, at one point you said you cracked the line at the MC which freed up the wheels, but then later you said you cracked the bleeders at the wheels to no effect.

This is pretty much impossible. 

So either you are misrepresenting the situation, or your car is possessed, or your just trolling / fucking with me.

Either way, its beyond my ability to help.

Reload the parts cannon and try again..?

[Ford2504x4]

  On 9/19/2023 at 10:12 AM, Cerberus said:

soo.. after rereading all your posts on this thread, there is a problem.

The symptoms you describe and the things that do or do not have an effect on the problem are far outside of logical.

Particularly, at one point you said you cracked the line at the MC which freed up the wheels, but then later you said you cracked the bleeders at the wheels to no effect.

This is pretty much impossible. 

So either you are misrepresenting the situation, or your car is possessed, or your just trolling / fucking with me.

Either way, its beyond my ability to help.

Reload the parts cannon and try again..?

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First off I am not trolling or F'ing with you, go search my user name on FTE under F2504x4 you will know I shoot straight period . I have been a gearhead for to many years. This one has me stumped , I even just replaced the primary brake line from the master cylinder to the ABS unit in case the short flex hose was bad. I have googled my ass off looking for a slimier case like what I am dealing with .

 

Cracking the line at the master is where I got strange result of fluid being push out, it should not be holding any pressure . I could hear the front calipers releasing. Go drive it after several braking actions , calipers are grabbing again. I then cracked the bleed no gush of fluid. So yea it makes no sense. I did buy a used ABS unit as the next step , Yes i am aware of copying the number from the old ABS to the new one the computer will recognize it.

Edited October 3, 2023 by Ford2504x4

[Ford2504x4]

Got a question, could the rotors be toast from hard braking actions when all this started with a bad booster ?  what I am getting at  is that they are over expanding when heated up ? I am using the WAG theory (wild ass guess) here

Yes I know about warp-age and hot spots .

[Cerberus]

  On 10/3/2023 at 2:06 AM, Ford2504x4 said:

Got a question, could the rotors be toast from hard braking actions when all this started with a bad booster ?  what I am getting at  is that they are over expanding when heated up ? I am using the WAG theory (wild ass guess) here

Yes I know about warp-age and hot spots .

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very unlikely.

[DistractedDev]

I feel your pain. I swapped an ABS module on a Fiesta due to a stuck check valve. Front left and rear right wouldn’t release after applying the brakes (the diagonals are in pairs, presumably so failure doesn’t dramatically pull to one side). It was an expensive part, so we tried to rule everything else out first. Hope you got it sorted in the end. 

[Ford2504x4]

  On 10/21/2023 at 6:11 AM, DistractedDev said:

I feel your pain. I swapped an ABS module on a Fiesta due to a stuck check valve. Front left and rear right wouldn’t release after applying the brakes (the diagonals are in pairs, presumably so failure doesn’t dramatically pull to one side). It was an expensive part, so we tried to rule everything else out first. Hope you got it sorted in the end. 

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I suspect that is the issue. I did buy a used one so I hope that it works. Just hope the shop can swap the PIN # so the computer recognizes it.

[DistractedDev]

I've read (but not tried, although we were prepared to if needed) that you can swap the electronics between units with the same part numbers with no ill effects. It should pull apart relatively easily with the removal of a few longish screws. This was our backup plan if programming the new pump via Forscan hadn't worked. Thankfully we were able to program the new pump using the beta version.

 

You may not need to update the VIN# at all for it to work. But I am not and do not claim to be an expert at this. In any case, Good Luck!

 

Edited October 27, 2023 by DistractedDev
Typos

[Ford2504x4]

Thanks DistractedDev, So this journey continues. Got a  ABS unit, sent it to the shop , mind you  it had brakes when I drove it just the front start to lock up as I drive it , they swapped the ABS unit , and could not get it to program or activate or do the PIN swap  . I told them to swap the electronics, but they were going to charge me again the full rate, Not happening, told them to tow it back to my place, It has no brake pressure at all now  . So I did the Electronics swap myself , No codes so far . Went through the whole bleeding procedures , even used a vacuum bleeder , I get a very tiny amount of fluid through the bleeders but no brake pressure build up , hmmm  I am guessing the master cylinder is toast (Dormen brand). So I am going to order a brand new Motorcraft master cylinder and rinse and repeat of this whole saga  . This is getting very old .... I am glad I have my F250 to drive as well as a Allante . But gas is not cheap and really want my Edge back on the road. 

 

I am open to any ideas  even ones that suggest to just start drinking. 

[Ford2504x4]

Here she sits , all broken down and rejecting the help I have given her... Grrr

 

[Cerberus]

  On 11/14/2023 at 10:15 PM, Ford2504x4 said:

 

I am open to any ideas  even ones that suggest to just start drinking. 

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so, out of left field.. you mentioned once that when you opened a bleeder, it did not spurt fluid and the brakes did not release.

The only way this can happen is if the caliper piston cannot retract any further OR the pads are too thick OR the rotors are too thick. 

This is how it can happen; you replace parts that for whatever reason are not within proper spec, so there is JUST enough air gap to get the pads & caliper onto the rotor 

But once you drive it, the rotors get warm and grow, pushing out on the pads which have no where to go because the caliper is fully compressed already. 

Its a long shot, and not probable, but thats the only thing that makes any kind of sense with the data given. 

[Ford2504x4]

@Cerberus Well this was at the primary line (rear)going to the master cylinder that it squired , not at the caliper . The tech said the rotors were within spec , but I will double check for myself to make sure I have a proper gap. The calipers seem to have movement at rest .  The new OEM master cylinder showed up to today so I will install it either tomorrow or Sunday .

 

I know it appears I am throwing parts at it but they were aftermarket  stuff and not OEM and the quality of after market replacement parts now a days can be very questionable.

 

I just did my 2013 F250 pads and they were not the best fit compared to a couple of years ago, the gold level brake pads would not snap in easily  .

[Ford2504x4]

Okay , I am glad to finally be able to say this, IT IS FIXED!  Good solid brakes. ABS does what it is suppose to.  The swapping of the mechanical's  of abs unit did work.Thanks for that suggestion, that saved bunch of programing stuff of the VIN  etc  I put on the 3rd new master cylinder  (OEM) and it bleed out properly . . Just a note , when I took off the brake lines to the 2nd new  (Dorman Brand) master cylinder , fluid just flowed out of it, so the seals must have been toast from when the shop had it, why they could not see that leaves me questioning their skills , Rotors were with in specs  .

Yeah I threw a bunch of parts at it , well not really cause I have habit doing calipers, rubber lines, etc every 100k anyways. just never run into a ABS unit issue before. I am guessing  the built in proportioning valve for the front brakes in the abs unit was stuck ..  I hope all this helps the next person .

Thanks to those that commented. ?

[edjunior]

Awesome.  Thanks for posting up the solution, and sorry you had to go through all that to get the brakes fixed.  But good to see it is finally fixed.  Hope that's all for now, as the Edge really is a pretty nice car, as i am coming to find out the more I drive mine.  I am also on the FTE site 

[Ford2504x4]

Bad news, needed new tires on the car , so got a appointment and on the way ,  guess what ? Yeah the front brakes started dragging  again ?. They are hot and over heated . Really at my wit's end on this. If someone knows of a good Ford mech , let me know . I am going to try to loosen the master cylinder nuts to the booster and see what happens, after that remove the vacuum line to the new booster and see what happens, although if it was the booster all 4 brakes should be hanging up I would think...

[Ford2504x4]

Just a minor update, the brakes work fine now, I loosed the master cylinder nuts up about 10mm which fixed the issue, it seems the booster push rod is too long. so I am going to see if I find find the specs for the length of the rod, the Edge has been daliy driven with no issues. 

 

Merry Christmas all.

[Cerberus]

  On 12/25/2023 at 3:53 PM, Ford2504x4 said:

Just a minor update, the brakes work fine now, I loosed the master cylinder nuts up about 10mm which fixed the issue, it seems the booster push rod is too long. so I am going to see if I find find the specs for the length of the rod, the Edge has been daliy driven with no issues. 

 

Merry Christmas all.

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Booster linkage/pushrod was one of the things I mentioned as suspect in my first response to this thread.

10mm is a LOT to loosen the MC nuts and drive around.. that does not sound safe.