motor swapped and wont start

[Robert99]

i work for a local shop, we recently swapped a 3.5L in a 2010 ford edge and it will not start, i have a scan tool that can read live data, it will crank but it will not start, it has no spark and the fuel injectors are not being triggered, the fuel pump is new, fuses and relays are good, all wiring is plugged in and the wires are in tact, it has a new crankshaft position sensor, in the data stream there is a option for "crankshaft and camshaft sensors synced" "yes or no" or similar wording, and it says no they are not synced, i have not found a way to resync them looking at google or through the scan tool, i was not sure if that was the problem, i checked on the data stream for "camshaft sensor fault" and it came up saying there was a fault so i tried switching them around since its a reman motor and that error went away after flipping them around, i was also looking at would maybe the key be an issue? like if the battery is low or needs to be relearned? not sure what else to check, going to keep researching and trying things, but any help or ideas would be greatly appreciated

Edited June 26, 2022 by Robert99

[1004ron]

I would verify the valve timing.

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

did you use a VCT 3.5 or a Ti-VCT 3.5? probably a silly question, but needed to ask. since it is cranking (150-250 rpm?), it is not a PATS issue, and the PCM/instrument cluster are not involved.

 

comes down to checking all the electrical connections and health of battery. are you able to turn on/run all accessories, headlamps, etc?

 

if cam and crank sensors are not synced, then it should set a code. what was the original problem that led to replacement of the engine? was it misfiring on the old setup?

[Robert99]

33 minutes ago, WWWPerfA_ZN0W said:

did you use a VCT 3.5 or a Ti-VCT 3.5? probably a silly question, but needed to ask. since it is cranking (150-250 rpm?), it is not a PATS issue, and the PCM/instrument cluster are not involved.

 

comes down to checking all the electrical connections and health of battery. are you able to turn on/run all accessories, headlamps, etc?

 

if cam and crank sensors are not synced, then it should set a code. what was the original problem that led to replacement of the engine? was it misfiring on the old setup?

Both the 1 we took out and the 1 we put in at Ti-VCT, all the accessories work, battery does get drained from using the scan tool and cranking, and there is only 1 code other then the readiness test, it has a throttle actuator error, the old engine was replaced because the headgaskets were blown, it had green oil and the customer wanted to go ahead and just do a new motor then do the head gaskets 

 

[enigma-2]

ECM good?

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

16 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Both the 1 we took out and the 1 we put in at Ti-VCT, all the accessories work, battery does get drained from using the scan tool and cranking, and there is only 1 code other then the readiness test, it has a throttle actuator error, the old engine was replaced because the headgaskets were blown, it had green oil and the customer wanted to go ahead and just do a new motor then do the head gaskets 

 

the 3.5 in a 2010 is vct, not ti-vct. i am not sure how that affects the sync issue but the pcm seems to be expecting a different response from the sensors than it is getting.  i don' t know enough to say that you can use the 2010 oem pcm with the ti-vct engine, a reflash with an as-built from a 2011+ might work, but i just don't know. you could ask a tuner to see if this new engine can be accommodated with the old pcm.

 

changing the throttle body should rid the throttle actuator code, but it will not help with the syncing issue.

[Robert99]

6 hours ago, enigma-2 said:

ECM good?

That I am not sure of, the car ran and drove when it came in

[Robert99]

4 hours ago, WWWPerfA_ZN0W said:

the 3.5 in a 2010 is vct, not ti-vct. i am not sure how that affects the sync issue but the pcm seems to be expecting a different response from the sensors than it is getting.  i don' t know enough to say that you can use the 2010 oem pcm with the ti-vct engine, a reflash with an as-built from a 2011+ might work, but i just don't know. you could ask a tuner to see if this new engine can be accommodated with the old pcm.

 

changing the throttle body should rid the throttle actuator code, but it will not help with the syncing issue.

Gotcha thanks for the help, I'm not sure either if the pcm will work, im not a Ford expert I'll have to look into it, I was researching I thought that if there was a timing controller on each valve cover that it was a ti-vct or is it not that simple to tell? Both motors have the same wiring and everything hooked right up 

 

Motor is from a 08 

 

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

vct has only 1 per valve cover, ti-vct has two. vct only controls intake, ti-vct controls both intake and exhaust. if the new motor is from an 08, then it should be 100% compatible.

 

are you sure the new motor has no timing issues? there was a tsb on the phasers that state if it had timing related codes, that the phasers would need to be replaced. i guess tho the codes would show up when you started it after the install, but its puzzling why it wont even start.

Edited June 28, 2022 by WWWPerfA_ZN0W

[Robert99]

8 hours ago, WWWPerfA_ZN0W said:

vct has only 1 per valve cover, ti-vct has two. vct only controls intake, ti-vct controls both intake and exhaust. if the new motor is from an 08, then it should be 100% compatible.

 

are you sure the new motor has no timing issues? there was a tsb on the phasers that state if it had timing related codes, that the phasers would need to be replaced. i guess tho the codes would show up when you started it after the install, but its puzzling why it wont even start.

Ahh gotcha thanks for the info I'm not too familiar with ford's, and we have it narrowed down the fuel sender had a open circuit I fixed that and we are wondering if it's the inertia switch now I'll add a picture of what our scanner shows, we have no codes at all on the system which is the weird part, but what I have shown in the picture is what is confusing us now, because I just went and checked every ground, connecter and wire and its all good, fuel pump is good and getting 60psi but the pcm is not firing the injectors for some reason, fuses and relays are also good

Edited June 29, 2022 by Robert99

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

Inertia switch is a good idea, since you are getting cranking but no fuel.

[1004ron]

2 hours ago, WWWPerfA_ZN0W said:

Inertia switch is a good idea, since you are getting cranking but no fuel.

Quote

it has no spark and the fuel injectors are not being triggered

Don't quote me, but I think the inertia switch cuts the fuel pump.

 

 

[Haz]

From the 2010 Edge Workshop Manual....

 

Fuel System Shutoff Feature

The FP module is controlled by the PCM. Electrical power to the FP module is provided through the IFS switch that will de-energize the fuel delivery secondary circuit in the event of a moderate to severe collision. The IFS switch is a safety device, located under the LR quarter trim panel. Should the vehicle shut off after a collision due to this feature, restart the vehicle by first turning the ignition OFF, push the reset button on the IFS switch, then turn the ignition to the ON position.

 

Good luck!

 

Edited June 29, 2022 by Haz

[Robert99]

59 minutes ago, Haz said:

From the 2010 Edge Workshop Manual....

 

Fuel System Shutoff Feature

The FP module is controlled by the PCM. Electrical power to the FP module is provided through the IFS switch that will de-energize the fuel delivery secondary circuit in the event of a moderate to severe collision. The IFS switch is a safety device, located under the LR quarter trim panel. Should the vehicle shut off after a collision due to this feature, restart the vehicle by first turning the ignition OFF, push the reset button on the IFS switch, then turn the ignition to the ON position.

 

Good luck!

 

Thanks, hopefully it helps some, if not don't have many ideas on what else it is 

[Robert99]

2 hours ago, 1004ron said:

Don't quote me, but I think the inertia switch cuts the fuel pump.

 

 

That's what I was reading too, so dosent seem like it will be the problem, hopefully fixing it will help some, the inertia switch is not reset though it is up and won't click down, if it's not then not sure what else to look for on the car to why it wont start 

[Haz]

I'm uncertain on interrupted / uninterrupted state of an immovable IFS reset switch.

 

Here is wiring diagram and the IFS switch connector detail.

 

If you've not ruled out IFS involvement, is it possible to verify switch-state by checking across switch's pins 1 & 2, and/or jumper 1 to 2 on harness connector if the switch is determined to be in the interrupted state?

 

 

 

 

[Haz]

The following is PDF download link for 'No Start Pinpoint Test' from 2010 Gasoline PC/ED Manual...

 

Pinpoint Test For Cranks But Doesn't Start - Fuel or Ignition Issue - 2010 FoMoCo Gasoline Powertrain Control Emissions Diagnosis (PC-ED) Manual.pdf

 

Good luck!

[Robert99]

2 hours ago, Haz said:

The following is PDF download link for 'No Start Pinpoint Test' from 2010 Gasoline PC/ED Manual...

 

Pinpoint Test For Cranks But Doesn't Start - Fuel or Ignition Issue - 2010 FoMoCo Gasoline Powertrain Control Emissions Diagnosis (PC-ED) Manual.pdf

 

Good luck!

Thanks for the manual we are going to check over all of it, is there more to it? It says if crank and cam is not synced to go to "JD2" and that is not listed in the PDF, in our scan tool it shows that it is not synced

Edited June 29, 2022 by Robert99

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

JD_Crankshaft Position _CKP_ Sensor 2007-2010 Edge MKX.pdf

hopefully gives the solution

[Haz]

Hat-tip to WWWPerfA_N0W for standing in the informational gap!

 

PDF download links to 'Pinpoint JD' and its other linked-to references...

 

JD - Crankshaft Position (CKP) Sensor - 2010 FoMoCo Gasoline Powertrain Control Emissions Diagnosis (PC-ED) Manual.pdf

 

Resetting The Keep Alive Memory (KAM) - 2010 FoMoCo Gasoline Powertrain Control Emissions Diagnosis (PC-ED) Manual.pdf

 

Clear the Continuous Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTCs) and Reset the Emission Monitors Information in the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) - 2010 FoMoCo Gasoline Powertrain Control Emissions Diagnosis (PC-ED) Manual.pdf

 

On Board Diagnostic (OBD) Drive Cycle - 2010 FoMoCo Gasoline Powertrain Control Emissions Diagnosis (PC-ED) Manual.pdf

 

Flash Electrically Erasable Programmable Read Only Memory (EEPROM) - 2010 FoMoCo Gasoline Powertrain Control Emissions Diagnosis (PC-ED) Manual.pdf

 

Good luck!

 

[Robert99]

Thanks very much for all the info it helps alot, I'll be back in the shop on Friday trying the things listed and report back if it's fixed or not, this has helped up narrow it down alot 

Edited July 4, 2022 by 1004ron

[Robert99]

On 6/29/2022 at 7:14 PM, Haz said:

Hat-tip to WWWPerfA_N0W for standing in the informational gap!

Good luck!

Ok so had an accident that I had to fix 1st lol, dropped my 7mm and a extension between the motor and trans in the bell housing so had to get that out, had to take all the bolts out of the trans and pry it open and it fell out, but with the issue of it not starting we closed early today for the 4th so I will have to finish it and try to crank again tommorow, I ran through the list for diagnostics posted and everything passed except the crank and cam not synced, that's how I lost the socket in the 1st place trying to take the crank sensor out, the sensor was dirty I cleaned it and put it back because its a brand new one, then ran through the diag for the sensor circuit everything passed, the last part though checking for voltage in the harness there was 0.3v , and it says no voltage should be present on JD9

Edited July 4, 2022 by 1004ron

[1004ron]

On 6/26/2022 at 3:13 PM, Robert99 said:

the customer wanted to go ahead and just do a new motor

 

Whats the origin of this "new" motor?

[Robert99]

30 minutes ago, 1004ron said:

Whats the origin of this "new" motor?

From a remanufactor company near me that does a bunch of different things motors, transmissions, etc..

[1004ron]

28 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

From a remanufactor company near me that does a bunch of different things motors, transmissions, etc..

If this was a running engine that just quit working I wouldn't suspect the valve timing, but after hearing that I'll stick with my suggestion earlier in this thread - check the valve timing.

Edited July 4, 2022 by 1004ron