2010 Edge wont crank

[DeanT2010]

Hi!  Long time stalker of this forum first time poster.

 

Our 2010 Edge with 157000km has recently developed an issue where it will randomly not want to start.  Jump in turn key to "on" dash lights up as normal, turn key to start and nothing.  No clicks no attempts to turn over.  The three times it has done this have all been on very hot days 35deg celcius. The other thing is in the dash display it flashed very quickly "Check Brake System".

 

I did NOT notice the security (pats) flashing any faster then normal when this issue occurs but cannot be 100%.

 

Other things of note

-It has no problems letting the shifter out of Park when brake is pressed.  The shifter has never locked into park.

-Will not crank when put into Neutral either.

-Selecting random gears then moving back to park did not seem to help.

-Wiggling the shifter side to side did not seem to help

-There is an aftermarket command start installed.  It was unable to start the vehicle either.  But oddly enough reported the engine running when it was not.

-In all cases of this issue the vehicle would eventually start after a period of time.  First time we let it sit for 30min.  The other times only a couple min was enough.

-Battery load tests fine and resting voltage is over 12v.

-Check engine light never came on.

-FORSCAN with HS/MS adapter is not picking up any codes.  All self-tests pass with one exception.  It is not able to communicate with the Satellite radio module. I have not been able to plug the scanner in when the issue is occurring.  All scans were attempted when vehicle is behaving normally.

 

Im quite sure the brake light switch ties into the starter lockout so I replaced it since its cheap and easy to do.  Other suspects are neutral safety switch but not sure how that correlates to the Check Brake System message.  I swapped the starter replay with the blower relay since they are the same.  Blower is working fine so assuming relay is not at fault.

 

When it does start after this issue has passed there are not any symptoms noticed.  Starts perfectly without sounding slow or laboured to crank over and does not crank longer then normal. No abnormal dash lights.

 

Sorry for long post hoping someone encountered this before or can spitball things to check.

 

 

 

[enigma-2]

Have you checked the CCA's of the battery? How old is your battery?

[Perblue]

Sounds like a dead spot on the starter. Instead of just trying to slowly start it, give the key 20 or 30 quick turns from on to start, don't bother clicking it back to off.

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

good troubleshooting!  battery and starter are good places to start, especially starter, which has been known to fail in high temp situations. 

do you hear the fuel pump prime when turning the ignition to ON?  should not affect the starter, just curious.

Edited July 19, 2021 by WWWPerfA_ZN0W

[DeanT2010]

Battery is rated for 650CCA and tested just shy of 400.  Voltages at rest and running were ok.  Might classify as slightly weak but not bad,  ruling out battery for the moment unless more symptoms point to it.  I cant seem to hear the fuel pump prime even when it starts normally.  I will try to listen carefully with all accessories off.

 

As far as starter goes it seems reasonable.  The sticky point for me is why the "Check Brake System" message would pop up for a starter issue?  I did not take note as to when the brake message came up, either before key was switched to start or after.  If it was after, is it possible the computer was expecting to have engine vacuum or something for the brakes?

[akirby]

30 minutes ago, DeanT2010 said:

Battery is rated for 650CCA and tested just shy of 400.  Voltages at rest and running were ok.  Might classify as slightly weak but not bad,  ruling out battery for the moment unless more symptoms point to it.  

400 down from 650 is a bad battery.  It will probably fail completely within a few months.

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

parts stores will still "PASS" it tho, lol.

 

there are a lot of warnings that pop up when attempting to start the vehicle. may be code related or entirely normal, check the owner's manual.  you can definitely pull codes and check to get a better idea.

[enigma-2]

The reference to brake warning during starting is why I mentioned the battery. When a battery gets weak, 60%, voltage drops during starting. (At rest it recovers).

 

Low voltage doesn't affect the starter much, but plays hell with all the computers in the car. 

[DeanT2010]

So had the battery tested again and guy said it was good.  Getting frustrated so just replaced the battery.  Now play the waiting game if problem occurs again.

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

how old is the command start? any way to take it out of the equation? have heard such units start to do weird things as they age.

[DeanT2010]

I had command start installed in 2013.  I was going to see if unplugging the unit will allow the vehicle to function normally.  I know they had to install a passlock module to work with or bypass the factory security.

[DeanT2010]

So it did the no start thing again today.  Turned key and nothing.  This time I watched if the security light and it was not blinking fast,  in fact no blink at all.  So I think PATS and the battery are ruled out. It was warm out today 30deg celsius at the time.  Im going to attach a pig tail wire on the starter relay so next time it does this I can put a test light on it and see if the computer is triggering the relay. 

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

PATS should slow blink until the vehicle is successfully started (iirc), if all is well.  So not blinking at all MAY be an issue here.

[DeanT2010]

Disconnected the command start to try.  Issue happened again after.  I was able to get a test light on the output side of the starter relay and does not light up on a failed start.  Looks like im staring down a computer issue   I didnt check if there was 12v on the input side but i think thats live all the time.

 

Any idea whats involved in a ecu swap, can a backyard mechanic do it or does need programming only ford can do?

 

Edited September 11, 2022 by DeanT2010
meant to reply not update existing post

[DeanT2010]

Update:

 

So still running into this issue.  Hoping I finally caught a code this time.  During this “no start” forscan picked up code U0253-20 - Lost communication with accessory protocol interface module.  Module Restraint Control Module.  
 

After waiting a couple min and trying again the engine starts no problem.  Subsequent checks for codes show nothing.  Before I start changing out the RCM I figured to run it up the flagpole here to see if that even makes sense for this to be the issue.

[EddieHudson]

I don't know where you're from but here in NYC there is a rat problem. It seems they like to chew on the wiring. Check all your harnesses for nibbles.

 

This spring I had 2 tires replaced and was told there was a plastic bag on my engine. It seems that Micky dragged a bad of chicken bones up there to have a secluded meal. A few times in the past I got the smell of bacon cooking while driving. When I checked there was a quarter inch blob of melted fat on the intake manifold.

Edited June 29, 2023 by 1004ron

[FredHug]

On 9/10/2022 at 9:36 PM, DeanT2010 said:

Update:

 

So still running into this issue.  Hoping I finally caught a code this time.  During this “no start” forscan picked up code U0253-20 - Lost communication with accessory protocol interface module.  Module Restraint Control Module.  
 

After waiting a couple min and trying again the engine starts no problem.  Subsequent checks for codes show nothing.  Before I start changing out the RCM I figured to run it up the flagpole here to see if that even makes sense for this to be the issue.

I have the same problem, finally after years found a code pointing to the RCM.  Did you replace it and was the problem fixed?

[DeanT2010]

On 10/25/2022 at 4:53 PM, FredHug said:

I have the same problem, finally after years found a code pointing to the RCM.  Did you replace it and was the problem fixed?

I did not replace the RCM.  The vehicle has done several failed starts since and I have not seen that code return.  
 

All I know for sure is this is a heat issue.  A mechanic friend said a failed start should be logged by the ecu and since nothing is getting logged its likely ecu itself.  More research is suggesting it could be the transmission control module as well.  Either swaps are expensive with no promise of fixing it.   
 

@FredHug any luck with your issue?

[DeanT2010]

Well if anyone else runs across this thread and has the same issue, I believe my problem is solved.

I ended up going to a wrecker and found a PCM (the main computer) with the same part and firmware version as mine.  Took it to local Ford dealer and they reprogrammed it to my vin and did the necessary voodoo for the PATS system.  Since then it has not failed to start!!  Its been running perfect for just about a month so far.  In our current warm weather  (24 to 33 deg C) and the just the number of start stop sequences by now it should have failed to start at least 3 times and hasn't skipped a beat.

 

To recap some troubleshooting:

-battery was good

-starter relay itself was replaced because its simple and cheap.  had no effect

-the command start would also fail to start the car.  this rules out the physical ignition tumbler and the ignition switch

-command start was ruled by unplugging the brain and removing the immobilizer  bypass module.  this takes the command start completely out of the starting path

-not a starter issue.  circuit was tested during a "no start" situation and putting a test light at the starter relay proved the relay was not being triggered

-fuel pump was ruled out.  even with fuel pump relays or fuses removed from the vehicle will still crank normally.  indicates it does not care if there is no fuel pressure it would still try to start

-using FORSCAN never trapped any meaningful codes during a no start situation.  when the vehicle would start normally there was never any codes, misfires or any data picked up which indicated any issue

-FORSCAN was used to watch real time data streams from certain systems.  of note the ignition tumbler and the transmission range sensor was watched during a no start.  The ignition tumbler would properly be shown in "Start" when the key was physically turned to start.  Ruled it out.  Transmission range sensor would properly indicate where the shifter was,  during a no start it always properly indicated Park.

 

Since the PCM I found was cheap and Ford only charged for 1 hr of labour to program it this was actually a fairly inexpensive repair to boot.

 

Hope this helps someone!

 

 

 

 

Edited August 21, 2023 by DeanT2010