Oil pressure & viscosity

[Cerberus]

I have Forscan and like to pull data from sensors, that in some cases I didn't even know existed.. like the "transfer case temperature sensor".

Since the 2.7 has no oil cooler in the edge but it does in the F150, I started wondering about oil temperatures and oil pressure at normal operating temperature.

 

Specs say that minimum oil pressure is 30psi @ 1500 rpm at temperature. 

Well the ambient temp hit 85 today so I checked my oil pressure when I got home from work and found it to below spec. Only about 25psi at 1500 rpm. Not horrible but not great. At idle, it dips into the lower teens. I've seen 12 or 13.

 

So, I really want to install a coolant to oil cooler but it is not practical at this time. I also want to put in the cooler thermostat but have no place to do work due to lease restrictions where I live..

So I'm considering fattening up my viscosity by doing 3x 5w-30 and 3x 5w/10w-40 at my next oil change which I will do early just for the viscosity and oil pressure concern. 

Can anyone come up with any good reasons not to do this?

Also of note, the warmest sensor while idle cooling when I got home was the so called transfer case fluid temperature was around 208.. higher than I would have expected for sure.

Edited May 20, 2021 by Cerberus
grammar

[todd92]

My tuned 2.7's get Mobil 1 0W-40.  5W-30 oil is too thin.  My NA cars that specify 5W-20 get 5W-30.  The reason for the thin oil is MPG and I don't see any decrease from using the slightly thicker oil.

[akirby]

6 hours ago, todd92 said:

My tuned 2.7's get Mobil 1 0W-40.  5W-30 oil is too thin.  My NA cars that specify 5W-20 get 5W-30.  The reason for the thin oil is MPG and I don't see any decrease from using the slightly thicker oil.

 

That could cause issues with the variable cam timing which uses engine oil.  It's more complicated than just fuel economy.

[handfiler]

30 minutes ago, akirby said:

 

That could cause issues with the variable cam timing which uses engine oil.  It's more complicated than just fuel economy.

 

My 2012 GT specified 5W-20, The Boss 302 specified 5W-50. Cam Phasers are identical. I've used Amsoil 10W-30 signature in it exclusively since installing the supercharger 8 years ago. It doesn't seem to mind it.

[todd92]

 

2 hours ago, akirby said:

 

That could cause issues with the variable cam timing which uses engine oil.  It's more complicated than just fuel economy.

No it isn't.  Red herring.

2 hours ago, handfiler said:

 

My 2012 GT specified 5W-20, The Boss 302 specified 5W-50. Cam Phasers are identical. I've used Amsoil 10W-30 signature in it exclusively since installing the supercharger 8 years ago. It doesn't seem to mind it.

Exactly.

[Cerberus]

6 hours ago, akirby said:

 

That could cause issues with the variable cam timing which uses engine oil.  It's more complicated than just fuel economy.

Since I am suffering from a low oil pressure condition, anything that brings oil pressure up to or moderately above minimum pressure  spec should not be a problem. 

Also since the cam phaser controls work on a pulse width modulation to control how much oil flows into the phaser, thus controlling the cam timing, higher oil pressure is easily compensated by reducing the duty cycle of the timing control actuators, all the way down to zero if need be.

Low oil pressure can cause a (seveal) big problem(s) but high oil pressure is less often a problem

[1004ron]

9 hours ago, Cerberus said:

Since I am suffering from a low oil pressure condition, anything that brings oil pressure up to or moderately above minimum pressure  spec should not be a problem. 

Also since the cam phaser controls work on a pulse width modulation to control how much oil flows into the phaser, thus controlling the cam timing, higher oil pressure is easily compensated by reducing the duty cycle of the timing control actuators, all the way down to zero if need be.

Low oil pressure can cause a (seveal) big problem(s) but high oil pressure is less often a problem

That depends on the cause of the low pressure condition, and if it was fouling of  the oil pump suction strainer it would be far worse to go with a heavier weight oil.

 

You're not considering an significant viscosity, so don't expect issues, but theoretically the higher viscosity come with lower flow and that could be worse.

[Cerberus]

2 hours ago, 1004ron said:

That depends on the cause of the low pressure condition, and if it was fouling of  the oil pump suction strainer it would be far worse to go with a heavier weight oil.

 

You're not considering an significant viscosity, so don't expect issues, but theoretically the higher viscosity come with lower flow and that could be worse.

Fair point, though the likelihood that the issue is related to an obstruction of the oil pump pick up is pretty minimal for two reasons.

 

1, the oil pan was just replaced under warranty due to leaks last summer, 

 

And 2, if the pickup were obstructed as you suggest, the oil pressure would probably not be higher when the oil is cold. And it definitely has more pressure cold.

 

Honestly, I've never seen oil strainer fouling cause low oil pressure, though I have seen some fouled up strainers..

[omar302]

May I ask where did you get the 30psi @ idle spec? Specs for the F-150 2.7 don't necessarily have to be the same for the Edge's 2.7.

 

[Cerberus]

5 minutes ago, omar302 said:

May I ask where did you get the 30psi @ idle spec? Specs for the F-150 2.7 don't necessarily have to be the same for the Edge's 2.7.

 

From a large digital service manual type thing in multi pdf format, specific to the edge, with multiple variants included.

And it's not 30psi at idle, it's 30psi at 1500 rpm at full temperature 

Edited May 21, 2021 by Cerberus
Correction

[1004ron]

3 hours ago, 1004ron said:

That depends on the cause of the low pressure condition, and if it was fouling of  the oil pump suction strainer it would be far worse to go with a heavier weight oil.

 

You're not considering an significant viscosity, so don't expect issues, but theoretically the higher viscosity come with lower flow and that could be worse.

 

36 minutes ago, Cerberus said:

Fair point, though the likelihood that the issue is related to an obstruction of the oil pump pick up is pretty minimal for two reasons.

 

1, the oil pan was just replaced under warranty due to leaks last summer, 

 

And 2, if the pickup were obstructed as you suggest, the oil pressure would probably not be higher when the oil is cold. And it definitely has more pressure cold.

 

Honestly, I've never seen oil strainer fouling cause low oil pressure, though I have seen some fouled up strainers..

What do you think is causing what you believe to be lower than design oil pressure when at operating temperature?

 

Our 2.7's have an oil pressure regulating valve, it could be the cause.

 

 

Edited May 21, 2021 by 1004ron

[Cerberus]

11 minutes ago, 1004ron said:

 

What do you think is causing what you believe to be lower than design oil pressure when at operating temperature?

 

Our 2.7's have an oil pressure regulating valve, it could be the cause.

All engine oil pumps have a pressure relief valve as far as I know.. I've never seen one that didn't.

Our 2.7s have a variable displacement oil pump which only used for couple years, replaced with an electronically controlled unit shortly thereafter.  That's one suspicion. 

Otherwise, being an off lease vehicle,  it's possible that the person or corporation who leased it did not maintain it as someone who bought it might. 

Also, it was bounced off a guardrail by the prior 'owner'  so who knows what might have happened then.. cracked oil pan, loss of oil, but driven home anyway.. 

Edited May 21, 2021 by Cerberus

[1004ron]

I have seen a few examples where poor oil maintenance led to sludge which fouled the oil pump intake strainer and the VVT solenoid valves fine mesh strainers, and it those cases I would advise against a higher viscosity oil.

 

I'm not suggesting that you'll have any issues with the increased viscosity, just adding food for thought.

[omar302]

Some ideas thinking out loud:

If the oil pressure is less than designed, why haven't you gotten a low oil pressure warning or DTC indicating the same?

 

The service manual's Oil Pressure Test procedure calls for using a "commercially available oil pressure gauge", so maybe the readout using ForScan is not reliable to assume you actually have a low oil pressure condition. After all, ForScan is just converting a signal to psi, maybe there is mistake in ForScan.

 

The manual has a note on the oil filter replacement:

The oil filter housing stem­ to ­oil reservoir drain port seal is included with the service filter and must be replaced. If this seal or filter housing stem is damaged or missing, the oil will flow through the reservoir drain port and a loss of engine oil pressure will occur.

Maybe check for oil filter if you haven't already?

Edited May 21, 2021 by omar302

[1004ron]

On 5/20/2021 at 2:31 AM, Cerberus said:

Specs say that minimum oil pressure is 30psi @ 1500 rpm at temperature. 

Well the ambient temp hit 85 today so I checked my oil pressure when I got home from work and found it to below spec. Only about 25psi at 1500 rpm. Not horrible but not great. At idle, it dips into the lower teens. I've seen 12 or 13.

 

There seems to be some conflicting info out there - what's your source of that spec?

 

https://www.sparkyexpress.ca/blogs/auto-blog/fluid-types-and-capacities-2019-ford-truck-f-150-2wd-v6-2-7l-turbo

 

 

[omar302]

I just checked my Edge Sport after warming up. It is hard to keep the RPM at exactly 1500, I tried as close as I could and it was closer to 25 than 30 psi. It was fluctuating so I changed the range to 0-30 to get a better graph.

[Cerberus]

8 hours ago, 1004ron said:

 

What do you think is causing what you believe to be lower than design oil pressure when at operating temperature?

 

Our 2.7's have an oil pressure regulating valve, it could be the cause.

 

 

ok, I am not 100% sure but i was under the impression that the "oil control solenoid" ( a pretty nondescript name..) was in the next generation of the engine, not in mine..

Now i have to verify and research further. 

[Cerberus]

3 hours ago, 1004ron said:

There seems to be some conflicting info out there - what's your source of that spec?

 

https://www.sparkyexpress.ca/blogs/auto-blog/fluid-types-and-capacities-2019-ford-truck-f-150-2wd-v6-2-7l-turbo

 

 

the source is a digital Ford Service Manual in PDF format.

you notice below it is specifying valve stem &  bore diameters

[Cerberus]

8 hours ago, omar302 said:

Some ideas thinking out loud:

If the oil pressure is less than designed, why haven't you gotten a low oil pressure warning or DTC indicating the same?

 

The service manual's Oil Pressure Test procedure calls for using a "commercially available oil pressure gauge", so maybe the readout using ForScan is not reliable to assume you actually have a low oil pressure condition. After all, ForScan is just converting a signal to psi, maybe there is mistake in ForScan.

 

The manual has a note on the oil filter replacement:

The oil filter housing stem­ to ­oil reservoir drain port seal is included with the service filter and must be replaced. If this seal or filter housing stem is damaged or missing, the oil will flow through the reservoir drain port and a loss of engine oil pressure will occur.

Maybe check for oil filter if you haven't already?

As far as a DTC, my transmission has a big slide in 3rd, like it sometimes never fully engages 3rd. The RPMs stay the same while road speed increases, until just before the 3>4 shift, then it catches the gear fully, RPMs and road speed climb together for a second or so, then goes to 4th. Now, there are ways the ECM PCM TCM (wtfe) could detect that and throw a code.. but it never does. Sliding clutches for an extended widow of time under load causes heat damaging the plates/bands and heating the fluid. This issue should set a code. But it does not. I'm sure their theory is, if it blows, hopefully it be outside of warranty when it does. They will not even fully acknowledge it officially when i brought it to the dealership for this concern.

 

point being, there can be problems present that the coded out of setting a DTC by increasing the acceptable slippage detection rate.

 

as far as the commercially available oil pressure gauge.. that's a fair point. we all know Ford's sensors are not particularly trustworthy historically.

 

I do replace the filter holder stem / drain port seal with every oil change so I have no reason to suspect that as a cause.

 

good input all around, thank you. (to all)

[Cerberus]

1 hour ago, omar302 said:

I just checked my Edge Sport after warming up. It is hard to keep the RPM at exactly 1500, I tried as close as I could and it was closer to 25 than 30 psi. It was fluctuating so I changed the range to 0-30 to get a better graph.

this is very interesting, thanks for that.