Edge turns over several times, doesn’t start,,,

[kapk22]

Not exactly sure where to post this. Our 2010 sport has been turning over lately and not starting. The starter cranks over and over and doesn’t start. However, when the key is turned off and then back on, it starts.  Anyone know what this is?

[enigma-2]

Could be so many things. The best start is to check for stored codes.

 

Based on age, I would suspect either the fuel pump or its relay. When you first turn the key (run, not start) do you hear the fuel pump running? If yes, check valve may be leaking and fuel prime lost. If no, turn off and on again. Running now?

[kapk22]

I will have her check today. It only does it once in a while. 

[kapk22]

She says the pump is on when she turns the key.  
 

could it be the fuel filter? 
 

does the gas tank have to be removed to access the filter?

[enigma-2]

Doubt it's the filter (internal to the tank).

You need to pull the codes and see what's stored. Often can do this at a local auto parts store, O'Reilly, Auto Zone, etc. 

[kapk22]

Okay. I will have her stop by one today. Thank you. 

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

have them check the battery also while u have it at the store, not only V but CCAs.  Unless it is cranking strong the first time.

 

check fob battery, may need replacement. if the PATS/security light flashes rapidly, the engine won't crank at all, and you will  need to source a replacement fob.

 

Depending on mileage, the crank sensor may be suspect also.  Rare for them to fail completely, but they do, especially in hot climates.

Edited April 9, 2021 by WWWPerfA_ZN0W

[kapk22]

She went by and they said they couldn’t test it unless there was a current code showing.  However, they did check the battery and alt. They are good.  He told her he thought it is likely the evap purge valve. 

[kapk22]

7 hours ago, WWWPerfA_ZN0W said:

have them check the battery also while u have it at the store, not only V but CCAs.  Unless it is cranking strong the first time.

 

check fob battery, may need replacement. if the PATS/security light flashes rapidly, the engine won't crank at all, and you will  need to source a replacement fob.

 

Depending on mileage, the crank sensor may be suspect also.  Rare for them to fail completely, but they do, especially in hot climates.

This is a 2010. Would the fob have anything to do with it? 
 

 

[kapk22]

9 hours ago, enigma-2 said:

Doubt it's the filter (internal to the tank).

You need to pull the codes and see what's stored. Often can do this at a local auto parts store, O'Reilly, Auto Zone, etc. 

for some reason the quote thing didn’t work. Any chance the oreilys guy could be correct about that evap purge valve? 
 

it just did it again tonight and she put her foot down on the gas (like the guy told her to at oreilys) and it stopped cranking. Then she turned the key off and back on and the car started fine. 

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

11 hours ago, kapk22 said:

This is a 2010. Would the fob have anything to do with it? 
 

 

could be right about the purge valve if it is flooding the engine with vapors on first try.  check if it holds vacuum with engine off.

 

yes, all fobs have batteries and transponders.  if the transponder is failing and does not communicate with the PATS ring in the vehicle, then you will not be able to crank at all.  the battery I believe is for remote functions, maybe also for transponder functions but not sure on that.

[enigma-2]

21 hours ago, kapk22 said:

She went by and they said they couldn’t test it unless there was a current code showing.  However, they did check the battery and alt. They are good.  He told her he thought it is likely the evap purge valve. 

Many codes are stored and can be read later. Perhaps Auto Zone?

 

If it is the EPV I'd expect to see codes like P0446 or P0455 stored and the most likely condition would be a rough idle or rough running right after you fill up with gas. Probably get a check engine light as well. (Still, I really don't know if it could cause a no start on first try or not. Doesn't seem like it, but ..).

 

Honestly I still suspect that its fuel related. Perhaps a bad check valve allowing the fuel to drain back. After the first try the fuel rail is pressurized and starts on the 2nd try.

 

One way to test this theory is to turn the ignition "on" but not start. Leave it this way for a few seconds (to allow the pump to pressurize the line) then turn to start. If it starts, I'd zero in on a check valve (but it's not the only possible possibility).

[CARR142]

7 hours ago, WWWPerfA_ZN0W said:

could be right about the purge valve if it is flooding the engine with vapors on first try.  check if it holds vacuum with engine off.

 

yes, all fobs have batteries and transponders.  if the transponder is failing and does not communicate with the PATS ring in the vehicle, then you will not be able to crank at all.  the battery I believe is for remote functions, maybe also for transponder functions but not sure on that.

You could try: "The Vehicle Does Not Start With The Passive Key In Certain Areas Within The Vehicle But Starts Using The Passive Key Backup Location" 

[kapk22]

14 hours ago, WWWPerfA_ZN0W said:

could be right about the purge valve if it is flooding the engine with vapors on first try.  check if it holds vacuum with engine off.

 

yes, all fobs have batteries and transponders.  if the transponder is failing and does not communicate with the PATS ring in the vehicle, then you will not be able to crank at all.  the battery I believe is for remote functions, maybe also for transponder functions but not sure on that.

Okay. I will check and see if there is vacuum. And swap batteries In the key fob. Thank You 

[kapk22]

8 hours ago, enigma-2 said:

Many codes are stored and can be read later. Perhaps Auto Zone?

 

If it is the EPV I'd expect to see codes like P0446 or P0455 stored and the most likely condition would be a rough idle or rough running right after you fill up with gas. Probably get a check engine light as well. (Still, I really don't know if it could cause a no start on first try or not. Doesn't seem like it, but ..).

 

Honestly I still suspect that its fuel related. Perhaps a bad check valve allowing the fuel to drain back. After the first try the fuel rail is pressurized and starts on the 2nd try.

 

One way to test this theory is to turn the ignition "on" but not start. Leave it this way for a few seconds (to allow the pump to pressurize the line) then turn to start. If it starts, I'd zero in on a check valve (but it's not the only possible possibility).

where would I find the check valve you are referring to?

[kapk22]

7 hours ago, CARR142 said:

You could try: "The Vehicle Does Not Start With The Passive Key In Certain Areas Within The Vehicle But Starts Using The Passive Key Backup Location" 

I don’t know what this means. 

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

3 hours ago, kapk22 said:

I don’t know what this means. 

only applies to 2011+ MY vehicles.  there is a place in the center console that you can put a fob in that will allow you to start the vehicle, if all other methods fail.  Some codes on these MYs will also prevent remote starting of the vehicle (safety reasons, as people let their vehicles idle).  Does not apply to 2010.

 

Definitely check the purge valve on the firewall.  It should hold vacuum with the engine off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvLOLXf2HfE

[enigma-2]

It's part of the fuel pump. (I think, I don't think there's a 2nd one). This video may help. (Did you do the test?)

 

[dajo2012]

On 4/8/2021 at 10:38 PM, kapk22 said:

Not exactly sure where to post this. Our 2010 sport has been turning over lately and not starting. The starter cranks over and over and doesn’t start. However, when the key is turned off and then back on, it starts.  Anyone know what this is?

That is exactly what my 2007 Ranger did when the fuel pump was failing. New fuel pump no more issues starting.

Quote

 

 

[kapk22]

On 4/11/2021 at 3:02 PM, enigma-2 said:

It's part of the fuel pump. (I think, I don't think there's a 2nd one). This video may help. (Did you do the test?)

 

I have not tested the fuel pump. 

 

On 4/8/2021 at 11:49 PM, enigma-2 said:

Could be so many things. The best start is to check for stored codes.

 

Based on age, I would suspect either the fuel pump or its relay. When you first turn the key (run, not start) do you hear the fuel pump running? If yes, check valve may be leaking and fuel prime lost. If no, turn off and on again. Running now?

 

On 4/9/2021 at 12:30 PM, enigma-2 said:

Doubt it's the filter (internal to the tank).

You need to pull the codes and see what's stored. Often can do this at a local auto parts store, O'Reilly, Auto Zone, etc. 

 

On 4/9/2021 at 2:28 PM, WWWPerfA_ZN0W said:

have them check the battery also while u have it at the store, not only V but CCAs.  Unless it is cranking strong the first time.

 

check fob battery, may need replacement. if the PATS/security light flashes rapidly, the engine won't crank at all, and you will  need to source a replacement fob.

 

Depending on mileage, the crank sensor may be suspect also.  Rare for them to fail completely, but they do, especially in hot climates.

she just confirmed this is happening right after she fuels up. So it is not random. Still think it’s fuel pump related?

[1004ron]

On 4/9/2021 at 3:30 PM, enigma-2 said:

Doubt it's the filter (internal to the tank).

You need to pull the codes and see what's stored. Often can do this at a local auto parts store, O'Reilly, Auto Zone, etc. 

 

On 4/10/2021 at 6:33 PM, enigma-2 said:

Many codes are stored and can be read later. Perhaps Auto Zone?

I'd try another store or Ford Dealership and have them scan for stored codes, because without that as a diagnostics starting point you're left with guessing.

 

Mine spluttered when idling every time after gassing up brim full, and no codes showed up, .....then I got a top of the line OBDLink MX+ which has free downloads specific to Ford, and its app and Forscan showing that there was in fact a stored code related to the evap valve.

 

Just further guessing, it could be a bad evap valve - something that wouldn't cost anything to try, next few times only fill up to about 3/4 tank and see if there's a change.

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07JFRFJG6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

 

About this item

• Turn your iPhone, Android device, or Windows PC into a professional-grade diagnostic scan tool
• Recommended adapter for FORScan, Torque, BimmerCode, Dashcommand, AlfaOBD, Carista and many more
• Enhanced Diagnostics: read (and clear) manufacturer-specific codes and access live parameters on a wide range of Ford, GM, Mazda, Nissan and Toyota vehicles

More Data

OBDLink MX+ supports GM-LAN and Ford-MSC proprietary vehicle networks that provide access to thousands of additional parameters that are off-limits to all other wireless OBD scanners, including BlueDriver and FIXD.

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[kapk22]

On 4/17/2021 at 5:07 AM, 1004ron said:

 

I'd try another store or Ford Dealership and have them scan for stored codes, because without that as a diagnostics starting point you're left with guessing.

 

Mine spluttered when idling every time after gassing up brim full, and no codes showed up, .....then I got a top of the line OBDLink MX+ which has free downloads specific to Ford, and its app and Forscan showing that there was in fact a stored code related to the evap valve.

 

Just further guessing, it could be a bad evap valve - something that wouldn't cost anything to try, next few times only fill up to about 3/4 tank and see if there's a change.

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07JFRFJG6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

 

About this item

• Turn your iPhone, Android device, or Windows PC into a professional-grade diagnostic scan tool
• Recommended adapter for FORScan, Torque, BimmerCode, Dashcommand, AlfaOBD, Carista and many more
• Enhanced Diagnostics: read (and clear) manufacturer-specific codes and access live parameters on a wide range of Ford, GM, Mazda, Nissan and Toyota vehicles

More Data

OBDLink MX+ supports GM-LAN and Ford-MSC proprietary vehicle networks that provide access to thousands of additional parameters that are off-limits to all other wireless OBD scanners, including BlueDriver and FIXD.

With third party apps, you can enable convenience features (including remote start and door lock/unlock) and change configuration on select models.

i followed the instructions on YouTube for checking the evap module and it seems to be ok. No suction on the line when uncapped. It took me this long to get the time to check It. 
 

I will have her go by autozone tomorrow and have them check for prior codes. 

[kapk22]

On 4/11/2021 at 6:15 PM, dajo2012 said:

That is exactly what my 2007 Ranger did when the fuel pump was failing. New fuel pump no more issues starting.

 

so,  after reading up on this, it really seems to point to the fuel pump. As stated, there is a valve on the pump likely failing.  The descriptions I found all over match what is happening. 
 

I checked to see what the cost would be to swap it out and kbb shows $60-71 in labor. This leads me to believe it is not too difficult to get to. However, I cannot find any videos of someone doing it. 
 

does it require dropping the gas tank? 
 

I had to do this on my older Jeep Wrangler and it was a pain in the butt. That was a sending unit, but it’s the same idea. 

 

 

[1004ron]

 

On 4/16/2021 at 10:54 PM, kapk22 said:

I have not tested the fuel pump. 

she just confirmed this is happening right after she fuels up. So it is not random. Still think it’s fuel pump related?

 

6 hours ago, kapk22 said:

so,  after reading up on this, it really seems to point to the fuel pump. As stated, there is a valve on the pump likely failing.  The descriptions I found all over match what is happening. 
 

I checked to see what the cost would be to swap it out and kbb shows $60-71 in labor. This leads me to believe it is not too difficult to get to. However, I cannot find any videos of someone doing it. 
 

does it require dropping the gas tank? 
 

I had to do this on my older Jeep Wrangler and it was a pain in the butt. That was a sending unit, but it’s the same idea. 

 

 

You could get lucky throwing parts at it, but could also get unlucky and it doesn't resolve the problem and waste money - statistics show that a non-diagnostic approach ends up costing more money than it should.

 

Where did you "read up on this"?

 

What valve in the pump are you referring to? - pressure regulating valve, or a non-return valve?

 

If it was a failing fuel pump, why would it only happen after she fuels up?

 

 

[dajo2012]

7 hours ago, kapk22 said:

so,  after reading up on this, it really seems to point to the fuel pump. As stated, there is a valve on the pump likely failing.  The descriptions I found all over match what is happening. 
 

I checked to see what the cost would be to swap it out and kbb shows $60-71 in labor. This leads me to believe it is not too difficult to get to. However, I cannot find any videos of someone doing it. 
 

does it require dropping the gas tank? 
 

I had to do this on my older Jeep Wrangler and it was a pain in the butt. That was a sending unit, but it’s the same idea. 

 

 

We were away from home and had to have a Ford dealer replace the pump.  It was $700 or  $ 800  the best I can remember. My issue was on all starts not just after fueling.

It seems like you could put a pressure gauge on and see if the pressure is maintained after engine is shut down.

Edited April 20, 2021 by dajo2012