Edge turns over several times, doesn’t start,,,

[kapk22]

4 hours ago, 1004ron said:

 

 

You could get lucky throwing parts at it, but could also get unlucky and it doesn't resolve the problem and waste money - statistics show that a non-diagnostic approach ends up costing more money than it should.

 

Where did you "read up on this"?

 

What valve in the pump are you referring to? - pressure regulating valve, or a non-return valve?

 

If it was a failing fuel pump, why would it only happen after she fuels up?

 

 

Google and YouTube. The valve they were talking about referred to the gas being pulled up to the “rail” and the. Draining back down. 

[kapk22]

17 hours ago, 1004ron said:

 

 

You could get lucky throwing parts at it, but could also get unlucky and it doesn't resolve the problem and waste money - statistics show that a non-diagnostic approach ends up costing more money than it should.

 

Where did you "read up on this"?

 

What valve in the pump are you referring to? - pressure regulating valve, or a non-return valve?

 

If it was a failing fuel pump, why would it only happen after she fuels up?

 

 

She took it to autozone and they could not find any codes in the history. 
 

so, what do you guys think?

 

next step, checking to see if the fuel pump is bad by doing the pressure test?

 

could the evap module still be an issue, even though I don’t feel any suction when the car is on and I am checking the lower hose port?

 

 

[kapk22]

On 4/8/2021 at 11:49 PM, enigma-2 said:

Could be so many things. The best start is to check for stored codes.

 

Based on age, I would suspect either the fuel pump or its relay. When you first turn the key (run, not start) do you hear the fuel pump running? If yes, check valve may be leaking and fuel prime lost. If no, turn off and on again. Running now?

I am kind of stumped, now that there are no codes stored. If it was the fuel pump, filter, or evap valve, I would think there would have been a code somewhere in there. 
 

should I get a new evap valve anyway?  If I can find one cheap (thought I found one for $25 or so)

 

If I have to swap the fuel pump out, do I have to drop the fuel tank to access it?

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

Codes don't get stored for every event.  For any code to set, it has to meet threshold conditions set by Ford.  Errors a certain number of times, in successions, until the threshold is crossed.  This is to keep oneoff errors from setting unnecessary codes.  Due to being mechanical systems controlled by electronics, there has to be this leeway built in.

 

test the purge valve for vacuum, pretty straightforward.  you can also monitor any obd data once the ignition key is turned to on, without engine being started.  Forscan Lite is built specifically for Fords, and it is pretty good at this.  Paired with a Bluetooth adapter (or Wifi adapter), it can give you gobs of data, in this case on EVAP systems and fuel trims, that would help you pinpoint the problem from the electronics side of things.

Did you check the PATS light? It is supposed to flash every 2-3 seconds IIRC if the fob is recognized when the ignition is turned to ON.  if it is not recognized, it will flash rapidly.  just a checkpoint, tho if the starter turns over, this should NOT be the issue.

 

The fuel pump MAY be weak, and need the twice priming to work.  But check the purge valve first.  Since you have to drop the tank in a 2010 to replace the fuel pump, I'd rather it be the purge valve, LOL. They did away with the floor access for fuel pumps sometime in late Gen 1, unfortunately, along with the Schrader valve on the fuel rail.  Insane to me, but I guess due to tightening emissions requirements or something.

 

[kapk22]

6 hours ago, WWWPerfA_ZN0W said:

Codes don't get stored for every event.  For any code to set, it has to meet threshold conditions set by Ford.  Errors a certain number of times, in successions, until the threshold is crossed.  This is to keep oneoff errors from setting unnecessary codes.  Due to being mechanical systems controlled by electronics, there has to be this leeway built in.

 

test the purge valve for vacuum, pretty straightforward.  you can also monitor any obd data once the ignition key is turned to on, without engine being started.  Forscan Lite is built specifically for Fords, and it is pretty good at this.  Paired with a Bluetooth adapter (or Wifi adapter), it can give you gobs of data, in this case on EVAP systems and fuel trims, that would help you pinpoint the problem from the electronics side of things.

Did you check the PATS light? It is supposed to flash every 2-3 seconds IIRC if the fob is recognized when the ignition is turned to ON.  if it is not recognized, it will flash rapidly.  just a checkpoint, tho if the starter turns over, this should NOT be the issue.

 

The fuel pump MAY be weak, and need the twice priming to work.  But check the purge valve first.  Since you have to drop the tank in a 2010 to replace the fuel pump, I'd rather it be the purge valve, LOL. They did away with the floor access for fuel pumps sometime in late Gen 1, unfortunately, along with the Schrader valve on the fuel rail.  Insane to me, but I guess due to tightening emissions requirements or something.

 

I checked the avap and there was no vacuum. Could it still be that though? 
 

 

I am also only able to find them for around $90.  

[kapk22]

On 4/22/2021 at 6:18 AM, WWWPerfA_ZN0W said:

Codes don't get stored for every event.  For any code to set, it has to meet threshold conditions set by Ford.  Errors a certain number of times, in successions, until the threshold is crossed.  This is to keep oneoff errors from setting unnecessary codes.  Due to being mechanical systems controlled by electronics, there has to be this leeway built in.

 

test the purge valve for vacuum, pretty straightforward.  you can also monitor any obd data once the ignition key is turned to on, without engine being started.  Forscan Lite is built specifically for Fords, and it is pretty good at this.  Paired with a Bluetooth adapter (or Wifi adapter), it can give you gobs of data, in this case on EVAP systems and fuel trims, that would help you pinpoint the problem from the electronics side of things.

Did you check the PATS light? It is supposed to flash every 2-3 seconds IIRC if the fob is recognized when the ignition is turned to ON.  if it is not recognized, it will flash rapidly.  just a checkpoint, tho if the starter turns over, this should NOT be the issue.

 

The fuel pump MAY be weak, and need the twice priming to work.  But check the purge valve first.  Since you have to drop the tank in a 2010 to replace the fuel pump, I'd rather it be the purge valve, LOL. They did away with the floor access for fuel pumps sometime in late Gen 1, unfortunately, along with the Schrader valve on the fuel rail.  Insane to me, but I guess due to tightening emissions requirements or something.

 

Update:  finally got the car into the Ford dealership. They had it plugged into their diagnostics computer all day and tried to replicate the issue. No luck. They said there were no codes and everything that their computer tested checked out fine. 
 

I am not really sure what else to do at this point. I don’t want to start throwing

Parts at it. I am considering just listing it for sale and providing the copy of the receipt/report we have from the dealership to the buyer. 
 

The car has not failed to start with this issue.  It simply requires us to turn it over a second time, periodically when it decides to do it. 
 

** they did tell me the car was “too old” for them to do the smoke test on the vacuum lines and evap valve. This was surprising, as I thought the video I watched on YouTube was an older expedition. I will have to search for that again. 

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

the purge valve should hold vacuum when tested. if it does not, it is bad.  i would replace it anyway. especially if it misbehaves right after a fillup.

[kapk22]

1 hour ago, WWWPerfA_ZN0W said:

the purge valve should hold vacuum when tested. if it does not, it is bad.  i would replace it anyway. especially if it misbehaves right after a fillup.

I was hesitant about checking it last night, because I didn’t want to cause it to throw a code (check engine light). 
 

when I tested it last time, I unplugged the power wire clamp on the left, then the lower hose on the right. I then started the engine and held my finger on the open port. At that time there was no suction, indicating it was not bad (from what I saw in the videos). 
 

can I do this again without causing a code? 
 

 

[kapk22]

On 4/17/2021 at 5:07 AM, 1004ron said:

 

I'd try another store or Ford Dealership and have them scan for stored codes, because without that as a diagnostics starting point you're left with guessing.

 

Mine spluttered when idling every time after gassing up brim full, and no codes showed up, .....then I got a top of the line OBDLink MX+ which has free downloads specific to Ford, and its app and Forscan showing that there was in fact a stored code related to the evap valve.

 

Just further guessing, it could be a bad evap valve - something that wouldn't cost anything to try, next few times only fill up to about 3/4 tank and see if there's a change.

 

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do you think checking the vacuum on the evap purge valve could cause it to throw a code ?

[kapk22]

On 6/16/2021 at 1:36 PM, WWWPerfA_ZN0W said:

the purge valve should hold vacuum when tested. if it does not, it is bad.  i would replace it anyway. especially if it misbehaves right after a fillup.

I replaced the evac purge valve two days ago and she had it happen again today. This time it took her three tries to get it started. 
 

now I’m thinking the fuel pump check valve. Just have to find it. 

[kapk22]

On 4/8/2021 at 11:49 PM, enigma-2 said:

Could be so many things. The best start is to check for stored codes.

 

Based on age, I would suspect either the fuel pump or its relay. When you first turn the key (run, not start) do you hear the fuel pump running? If yes, check valve may be leaking and fuel prime lost. If no, turn off and on again. Running now?

Well, now it is taking five tries to get started. The new evap purge valve and battery in the key fob was not it. 
 

 

I just ordered a new mass airflow sensor. And we scheduled an appointment for July 26th (earliest they had) to have them check the fuel pressure.  This time we are taking it to an actual mechanic.  Still don’t trust anyone around here, but I don’t know what else to do.  The dealership says they cannot replicate the issue and there are no codes, so they cannot do anything for it.  $80 later.  

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

shouldn't trust anyone on the internet, really, lol.  we are just brainstorming here since we do not have access to the actual vehicle to run any diagnostics.  a lot of us are better at DOING things than explaining to others HOW to do it.

 

unfortunately, Ford took over the Schrader valve on the fuel rail, so it is more difficult to check if fuel pressure is holding after shutoff.  you can always pull a spark plug after a failed cranking session to see if the plugs have fuel on them. 

 

if the engine cranks, it is not the PATS system.  plain and simple.

 

assuming the crank speed is normal - 150-250 rpm - and there is fuel getting to the cylinders, we are possibly looking at a failing sensor of some sort where it is too early to set a code.  crank sensor would be my first guess, as i believed i said earlier also.

[kapk22]

38 minutes ago, WWWPerfA_ZN0W said:

shouldn't trust anyone on the internet, really, lol.  we are just brainstorming here since we do not have access to the actual vehicle to run any diagnostics.  a lot of us are better at DOING things than explaining to others HOW to do it.

 

unfortunately, Ford took over the Schrader valve on the fuel rail, so it is more difficult to check if fuel pressure is holding after shutoff.  you can always pull a spark plug after a failed cranking session to see if the plugs have fuel on them. 

 

if the engine cranks, it is not the PATS system.  plain and simple.

 

assuming the crank speed is normal - 150-250 rpm - and there is fuel getting to the cylinders, we are possibly looking at a failing sensor of some sort where it is too early to set a code.  crank sensor would be my first guess, as i believed i said earlier also.

Might just order one of these guys too..  

 

 

I am down to chasing parts. It’s the last thing I want to do, but I don’t know what else is left. 
 

I did read a post on another forum suggesting adding Tc-1 or similar could help the fuel pump check valve. Going to look into this as well. 
 

thank you for the reply. 

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

tc-w3.  supertech/walmart brand works well, no need to pay the exorbitant prices on name brands.

 

still no codes or pending codes, right?

[kapk22]

55 minutes ago, WWWPerfA_ZN0W said:

tc-w3.  supertech/walmart brand works well, no need to pay the exorbitant prices on name brands.

 

still no codes or pending codes, right?

Correct. No codes. That’s why the dealership said they couldn’t find anything. 

they said they had it on their diagnostics computer and “checked all systems”. 

they also said they could not do the “smoke test” because the car is a 2010 and did not have the “port” for them to plug it in. 
 

This is why I chose to schedule an appointment for an actual mechanic to check the fuel pressure.  

[kapk22]

On 6/30/2021 at 4:17 PM, WWWPerfA_ZN0W said:

tc-w3.  supertech/walmart brand works well, no need to pay the exorbitant prices on name brands.

 

still no codes or pending codes, right?

well,

 

I ended up pouring a bottle of Berryman B12 in the full gas tank and no changes. 
 

then, the battery died on us. We purchased it last year, so it was warrantied. My guess is, the battery gave up after having to turn over so much all the time.  
 

at the same time I replaced the battery, I swapped the new mass airflow sensor in.  First time I turned it over, it cranked a few times and then started.  Angela told

me it had never done this before, it only cranked a while and stopped on its own. 
 

the next few days the car did the long crank as usual. Then, today,, she noticed the fuel range went seventy miles up when she filled the tank.  She also has not had the long crank happen.  
 

my question now is, could it be possible that the new mass airflow sensor is the fix and the computer had to adjust?  
 

the gained mileage would make sense, as it was likely running lean. 
 

crossing our fingers. 

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

well, you replaced the battery. that likely caused the pcm to reset and relearn your driving style. new maf sensor could definitely have helped as well, but it would have to be pretty far gone to make that much of a difference.

 

fingers crossed for continued improvement.

 

EDIT: another stray thought that occurred to me is that you should keep an eye on fuses 21 (EVAP canister vent control solenoid, Powertrain Control Module (PCM)) and 32 (Brake Pedal Position (BPP) switch, Mass Air Flow/Intake Air Temperature, (MAF/IAT) sensor, EVAP canister purge valve, VCT solenoids, Heated oxygen sensors) in the underhood fuse box.  i seem to remember one or two cases where replacing those actually made a difference.  very rarely see fuses and relays go bad on this platform tho.

Edited July 14, 2021 by WWWPerfA_ZN0W

[kapk22]

5 hours ago, WWWPerfA_ZN0W said:

well, you replaced the battery. that likely caused the pcm to reset and relearn your driving style. new maf sensor could definitely have helped as well, but it would have to be pretty far gone to make that much of a difference.

 

fingers crossed for continued improvement.

 

EDIT: another stray thought that occurred to me is that you should keep an eye on fuses 21 (EVAP canister vent control solenoid, Powertrain Control Module (PCM)) and 32 (Brake Pedal Position (BPP) switch, Mass Air Flow/Intake Air Temperature, (MAF/IAT) sensor, EVAP canister purge valve, VCT solenoids, Heated oxygen sensors) in the underhood fuse box.  i seem to remember one or two cases where replacing those actually made a difference.  very rarely see fuses and relays go bad on this platform tho.

I’m glad you mentioned this. When the battery went down, I was confused at first. Then I remembered reading something about the brake pedal having something to do with the original issue. I couldn’t find anything on it. Thanks for the help again. I will check on these next. 

[kapk22]

On 7/14/2021 at 2:33 AM, WWWPerfA_ZN0W said:

well, you replaced the battery. that likely caused the pcm to reset and relearn your driving style. new maf sensor could definitely have helped as well, but it would have to be pretty far gone to make that much of a difference.

 

fingers crossed for continued improvement.

 

EDIT: another stray thought that occurred to me is that you should keep an eye on fuses 21 (EVAP canister vent control solenoid, Powertrain Control Module (PCM)) and 32 (Brake Pedal Position (BPP) switch, Mass Air Flow/Intake Air Temperature, (MAF/IAT) sensor, EVAP canister purge valve, VCT solenoids, Heated oxygen sensors) in the underhood fuse box.  i seem to remember one or two cases where replacing those actually made a difference.  very rarely see fuses and relays go bad on this platform tho.

Update,

 

it didn’t do for almost an entire week and then did just now.  So weird. 

[akirby]

11 hours ago, kapk22 said:

Update,

 

it didn’t do for almost an entire week and then did just now.  So weird. 

FWIW I remember a similar issue on first Gen Fusions that had to do with the engine not stopping in the correct position which caused it to not restart intermittently.  I think it was maybe the crankshaft or camshaft position sensor but I really don’t remember.

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

16 hours ago, kapk22 said:

Update,

 

it didn’t do for almost an entire week and then did just now.  So weird. 

how much did you drive the vehicle in this time period? wonder if the pcm was relearning/just finished & set the code.

[kapk22]

10 hours ago, akirby said:

FWIW I remember a similar issue on first Gen Fusions that had to do with the engine not stopping in the correct position which caused it to not restart intermittently.  I think it was maybe the crankshaft or camshaft position sensor but I really don’t remember.

wwwperfa_zn0w

 

suggested the new camshaft position sensor previously. I haven’t ordered one yet. Torn between buying another part and waiting to have the shop check the fuel pressure and having the actual mechanic troubleshooting on the 26th. 

[kapk22]

14 hours ago, WWWPerfA_ZN0W said:

how much did you drive the vehicle in this time period? wonder if the pcm was relearning/just finished & set the code.

78 miles 

 

no codes thrown 

 

are there two camshaft position sensors ?

Edited July 17, 2021 by kapk22

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

yes, one on each bank.  confusingly, ford also refers to the timing phasers as actuators lol. the electronic sensors are underneath the intake tubing, a little work to get to them, but not bad.

[kapk22]

4 hours ago, WWWPerfA_ZN0W said:

yes, one on each bank.  confusingly, ford also refers to the timing phasers as actuators lol. the electronic sensors are underneath the intake tubing, a little work to get to them, but not bad.

That’s what I thought I saw on YouTube. With the fuel range changing (plus 70 miles) after putting the new battery and mass airflow sensor in, it kinda makes sense. If the pcm is re-learning, maybe a faulty camshaft position sensor keeps causing it to happen. Or the fuel pump, or fuel pump check valve… FML. I guess we shall see what the mechanic ends up finding. I will check the fuses today, just in case it’s a simple fix. Wouldn’t that be cool. Thanks again for the help.