Edgingage Posted January 3, 2021 Report Share Posted January 3, 2021 (edited) Happy New Year folks: I know coolant/antifreeze topic has been on and off over the years, but the dealer got me confused once again and I'd like your opinion or advise, please. Some background info first: About three years ago, as the vehicle was new to me then, I requested the dealer to do a coolant full flush, and they agreed. When I picked the vehicle back (and I asked if they did the full flush) only then they told me they "couldn't" do the full flush and they did just drain and fill, even though they previously agreed and also recorded in the service invoice: "engine coolant flush and replace coolant with anti-freeze part CVC 10 A (CAD $47.99 + labour). When I opened the hood the new coolant color was a very dark green. I knew nothing then (no much more now anyway lol) and I just assumed the dealer knew what they do... This week, after 33280 km (around 20K miles) later, I took it to the dealer and again requested a full flush. The service advisor this time recommended "not to do a full flush because some engines have had some hick ups..." (his own words). I couldn't argue and agreed to drain and fill only. When I picked my vehicle back, this time they recorded in the service order: "cooling system flush with anti-freeze part CVC 5 (CAD $23.99 + labour). I asked him how come the coolant was much cheaper this time, he told me "oh, it's a concentrate, they just pour it in and dilute it with water..." OK I guest (to myself). When I opened the hood, this time the coolant color was translucent/transparent light green... We all know why we do earlier coolant changes, right?; therefore I'll greatly appreciate your opinions and advise on my paramount questions to you all: - Should I be concerned that they changed the coolant color from dark green to light green? - should I have any other concern(s)? I know I always write too much trying to explain it all, but please feel free to ask for any further clarification. Thank you all in advance. Edited January 8, 2021 by Edgingage 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgingage Posted January 4, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2021 (edited) Hello again folks, I just got a response from the dealer explaining that the Specialty dark green concentrated coolant (service part CVC 10 A) is no longer available and that they used the Premium light green concentrated coolant (service part CVC-5) now recommended for my Edge (built in Mar 2011). If someone else could please confirm it will add peace to my mind. Thank you all in advance. PS: the "C" in front of the VC is for Canada; it may be the same product as just the VC (my guess, but I could be wrong) Antifreeze_Coolant_Usage_Chart.pdf (ford.com) Edited January 4, 2021 by Edgingage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaMiFo Posted January 4, 2021 Report Share Posted January 4, 2021 Sounds like your dealer doesn't know (or care) what they're doing. Dark green and Premium Antifreeze (light green) are not compatible. http://www.fcsdchemicalsandlubricants.com/quickref/FCSD Motorcraft Yellow Antifreeze-Coolant Backward Compatability.pdf Also here's the newer version of the chart you posted: https://www.motorcraft.com/content/dam/ford-motorcraft/en_us/motorcraft_global/products/lubricants/quick_reference_charts/antifreeze_coolants_english.pdf I'd bring it back and tell the dealer that they used the wrong coolant and they need to drain/fill (even twice, as a single drain/fill doesn't empty the block) so they're not mixing incompatible coolants. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgingage Posted January 5, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2021 3 hours ago, DaMiFo said: Sounds like your dealer doesn't know (or care) what they're doing. Dark green and Premium Antifreeze (light green) are not compatible. http://www.fcsdchemicalsandlubricants.com/quickref/FCSD Motorcraft Yellow Antifreeze-Coolant Backward Compatibility.pdf Also here's the newer version of the chart you posted: https://www.motorcraft.com/content/dam/ford-motorcraft/en_us/motorcraft_global/products/lubricants/quick_reference_charts/antifreeze_coolants_english.pdf I'd bring it back and tell the dealer that they used the wrong coolant and they need to drain/fill (even twice, as a single drain/fill doesn't empty the block) so they're not mixing incompatible coolants. Damifo, thank you VERY MUCH for your comments, info and references. I have the same concern about my town dealer: don't know or don't care? When I brought the car this last time, he did tell me that they drain & fill twice; who knows if it's true but he also told me it's about 1h charge for labor. For safety reasons, customers are not longer allowed in the shop so I can't witness it... I'll get back to them; I foresee a long battle... Thanks again for your valuable info and comments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgingage Posted January 5, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2021 (edited) Hello again Damifo and all: I have another question, if you wouldn't mind, please: it's regarding the invoice and charge from the Ford dealer for the requested cooling system flush: they told me they'll drain and fill twice. However, the invoice/charge lists 1 part CVC 5 antifreeze for $23.99 (parts total). My question to you is: does anyone knows if this amount (1 CVC-5 for $23.99) corresponds to one drain and fill or two drain and fill as they told me they'll do. The reason of my question is that I'd like to go "full force" with my claim/complain and I would like to know how I can check if they actually do one, two or (I may request) three drain and fill. How can I know/check how many drain and fill they do? Is there a way for me to know? Thank you all in advance. Edit: I think I'm going to try to obtain that info from the Ford dealer parts dept. If they give me the price per unit and how many liters of water to be added per unit I can figure it out, as my vehicle system uses 11.7L (11.1 quarts) of engine coolant. Thanks folks. Edited January 5, 2021 by Edgingage Adding rationale for calculations Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgingage Posted January 5, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2021 Update: Dealer is sorry for the confusion, apologized for the inconvenience and will take my car back to make this right. I want to thank this great forum, and specially DaMiFo once again for the very valuable and timely info. You literally saved my car so, thank YOU! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1004ron Posted January 5, 2021 Report Share Posted January 5, 2021 Here's another thread on that, with the Ford PDF on the change. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgingage Posted January 5, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2021 (edited) Thank you Ron as well. I just asked the dealer if they also sell distilled water (just for me to check what they use to dilute the antifreeze/coolant), and they told me they use tap water to dilute antifreeze/coolant as a regular standard operating procedure. I guess at this point it'll be better to have the correct coolant even diluted with tap water than a contamination with diluted light green (wrong) coolant in my system... Anyhow... I also asked them in this case (that they contaminated my system with light green coolant) if they'll do just a drain and fill twice or an actual flush and fill twice. Still waiting for an answer... Oh boys... Thank you all. Edited January 6, 2021 by Edgingage 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1004ron Posted January 5, 2021 Report Share Posted January 5, 2021 I would not accept tap water being mixed with the coolant in my vehicle and there's good reason why Ford's product label specifies distilled water. The fact that the water they're using might be quite soft doesn't cut it with me - the detrimental impact will only be seen after a long period of service. Reject it if they don't follow Ford's directions which are clear on the product labels and that PDF. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgingage Posted January 5, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2021 (edited) I asked them; they told me they use tap water as their regular standard operating procedure. If I don't accept it they won't do it. I even went further to ask what type of procedure they do. They told me they do drain and fill twice (not flush because some engines have had some hick ups after real flush...). But then I asked them how they do two (2) drain & fill with only one (1) jug of 4L concentrate. I got no answer. I explained to them that 1 jug of 4L concentrate at 50/50 dilution would make up a maximum of 8L of diluted coolant. How they did two (2) drain & fill with only 8L of diluted coolant if my vehicle system takes 11.1L of engine coolant. I got no answer... Now I'm going to refer to what they are saying regarding the coolant. Read below, please: Basically, they're going to do one drain & fill procedure as if replacing with the same coolant type. If the coolant system is contaminated with a non compatible coolant, I don't think the same one drain & fill procedure should apply. They're going to contact Ford hotline to consult if the CVC5 used in my car is compatible with the CVC13, as they say the CVC5 is the newest and more advanced coolant Ford has. They know it reads CVC13 replaces CVC10 but that there shouldn't be a problem if they used a coolant better than recommended... Now I'm going to refer to the last message I received after I told them I'm not accepting that: They will email me when they get an answer from Ford Canada as the backward compatibility bulleting doesn't mention the incompatibility of the CVC5 in my vehicle. They set me up to "flush" the coolant again on their expense if necessary. That "if necessary" kind of throw me off; I don't really know what they mean... They haven't answered yet one my questions on how they got two (2) drain & fill with only one (1) jug of 4L (4 quarts) of CVC5 concentrated coolant at 50/50 dilution with water if my vehicle system takes 11.1L (11.7 quarts) of engine coolant. If they did only one drain & fill, that concentrate volume in that total volume is more like a 30/70 coolant/tap water; if they actually did two drain & fill with only one 4L jug, then that dilution is more like a 15/85 coolant/tap water... I also mentioned that Ford Motorcraft instructs a 50/50 dilution with deionized water, not with tap water. I have no answers to any of my questions; I've asked them twice today already... Thank you all in advance. Edited January 6, 2021 by Edgingage Dilution calculations Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1004ron Posted January 5, 2021 Report Share Posted January 5, 2021 I would advise contacting Ford Canada yourself, and find a reputable independent service place or another dealership for future work. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgingage Posted January 5, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2021 (edited) Yes, I'm thinking about contacting Ford Canada; thanks Ron. The thing is if I graciously decline the dealer's offer, I don't know how much damage the car will have if I keep running the car until a suitable resolution might be reached with Ford Canada (I don't expect Ford Canada to pay immediate attention to a 10 years old vehicle with 125K miles on it ). Then if I accept what the dealer here is "offering" me, Ford Canada may consider the matter resolved. I'm kind of stuck in between two rocks, if you know what I mean. Reputable independent service place.. Hum? Well, I don't want to make it sound/look too difficult, but I've already tried before 4-5 different places over 25 years. The problem here is that most places (I haven't tried them all) here have significant turn around (low pay). You "stick" with a guy for a while and then after a while that guy is gone; the next guy does things "differently" (it shouldn't be, I know). ...But it's definitively time to look around once again. You know what I really think: many, way too many people just drop off their vehicles for service and then pick them up and drive away without checking (I found that out because I checked, and asked what they did; and then when I received a childish answer I consulted with you folks; how many people do that? That's how the dealer "gets away with murder"). Then when something fails (like the water pump, for instance), people say it's Ford's fault. I honestly don't think it's always Ford's fault, at least not regarding the vehicles design and functioning. It's the enforcement of the correct and appropriate maintenance which are in limbo, and then things fail... But anyway... I'll be on the hunt... Anyhow, no more responses from the dealer today. I'll keep you guys posted on the development, if interested. I thank you all once again for your advise and support. Edited January 21, 2021 by Edgingage Spelling correction 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgingage Posted January 8, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2021 (edited) Hello folks: Still dealing with the dealer and the contamination with the (C)VC5 they put in my cooling system. Tomorrow they'll do "something" but they refuse to let me know beforehand what they're planning to do. I've asked many many times with absolutely no one answer, other than "we're going to use (C)VC13DLG; bring it in tomorrow" (thanks). I should have asked you folks before but I got that answer from them today and this question just came to mind after being so worried for not knowing what they're actually going to do: Does anyone know (even approximately) how much volume of coolant (L or qts) keeps trapped in the cooling system/block when you just drain it? According to the User's Guide for the 2011 Edge SEL the coolant system takes a total volume of 11.1L (11.7 qts). Thanks in advance, folks. Edited January 8, 2021 by Edgingage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgingage Posted January 10, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2021 (edited) Coolant repaced by dealer at their courtesy. Thank you very much folks for your valuable info. Edited January 10, 2021 by Edgingage 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enigma-2 Posted January 18, 2021 Report Share Posted January 18, 2021 I think everyone agrees that tap water is wrong to use your cooling system, even a thin coating of scale causes the engine to run hotter. That said, distilled isn't all that good either. The best choice is to use softened water. This page explains it best: https://blog.protectmycar.com/can-you-mix-tap-water-with-engine-coolant 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWWPerfA_ZN0W Posted January 18, 2021 Report Share Posted January 18, 2021 Ford Canada does not have a good reputation May be better off contacting Lincoln Canada instead if Ford is not agreeable. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgingage Posted January 20, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2021 (edited) Ford Canada agreed to replace the wrong coolant; town Ford Dealer didn't agree to use other than tap water. I even offered to bring destiled water in at my own expense; denied. The point (I think) is who/how that gets enforced, checked, audit by? 2011-2014 Edge water pumps are notorious for failure. Ford engineers get the blame;. I wonder who are really to be blamed for poor, inadequate, substandard maintenance practices which could actually very well provoke the pump failures, not it's design and build. And I don't know how it is where you folks live, but here Ford and Lincoln is the same dealer/owner. So, I'll expect no different treatments/procedures if I go to Lincoln Canada... You don't even want to know how much the Lincoln Serv Rep knows about Lincoln vehicles here, don't get me there... That person has been working as Serv Rep for more than 20 years, but when I made a comment about the newly redesigned Aviator that person had no clue it had existed before... Anyway, I'll continue sticking with you folks here for me to continue learning how to do things in my vehicle by my own, at least the ones I'll dare to tackle. Million thanks to all in advance. Edited January 20, 2021 by Edgingage 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWWPerfA_ZN0W Posted January 20, 2021 Report Share Posted January 20, 2021 i always get coolant changed at my local shop, never at the dealer, so i never face these issues lol. they put in what i bring to them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handfiler Posted January 20, 2021 Report Share Posted January 20, 2021 On 1/5/2021 at 5:58 PM, Edgingage said: As for another dealership, the next (and only other) Ford dealership in this province is about 30 miles away. It's not that it's that far; the real problem is, on one hand, I believe (not 100% sure) that both Ford dealerships are owned by the same group/person(s); on the other hand, I doubt they have different, better standard operating procedures; we'd have heard about that already. Do you live on Prince Edward Island? I cant think of any other province that would have so few. We have 4 dealerships in my city. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omidsolo Posted January 25, 2021 Report Share Posted January 25, 2021 Hey This link you guys posted above in this topic: https://www.motorcraft.com/content/dam/ford-motorcraft/en_us/motorcraft_global/products/lubricants/quick_reference_charts/antifreeze_coolants_english.pdf Does not open or download for me, I can open motorcraft.com or ford.com in browser but not the above PDF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1004ron Posted January 25, 2021 Report Share Posted January 25, 2021 33 minutes ago, omidsolo said: Hey This link you guys posted above in this topic: https://www.motorcraft.com/content/dam/ford-motorcraft/en_us/motorcraft_global/products/lubricants/quick_reference_charts/antifreeze_coolants_english.pdf Does not open or download for me, I can open motorcraft.com or ford.com in browser but not the above PDF I just tried the link in your post above on my phone and laptop and both opened the PDF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omidsolo Posted January 25, 2021 Report Share Posted January 25, 2021 4 hours ago, 1004ron said: I just tried the link in your post above on my phone and laptop and both opened the PDF. Can you please kindly send me the PDF? Does not work for me at all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CARR142 Posted January 26, 2021 Report Share Posted January 26, 2021 Try opening the link in new private window using Firefox. or New incognito window using Chrome. or New Inprivate window using Edge, (Windows) Best Wishes! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgingage Posted January 27, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2021 (edited) That has happened to me while trying to open other PDF docs and I had to download and install the Adobe Reader standalone in my device (computer and/or phone) to solve that problem. Try that. Edit: and once installed make sure to check it as default to open PDF docs. There's a fierce competition out there lol. Edited January 27, 2021 by Edgingage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Blue Wedge Posted January 28, 2021 Report Share Posted January 28, 2021 I just did this a few months ago, added Orange pre-diluted anti-freeze in my 14 3.5, exactly what came out from the factory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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