2020 Engine Temperature

[omar302]

@WWWPerfA_ZN0W

Interesting how the (2015-2018) thermostat comes as an assembly with the housing. Also noticed that it has a small bypass outlet that doesn't go through the thermostat.

 

@lildisco

Do you notice a difference between both models in terms of how fast the interior heat comes on during that warm up time? Like what several members stated above that it might be a thermostat issue, but I wouldn't expect it to  since everything else is ok. I remember reading that with auto-start-stop, there is also a heat-pump to circulate coolant during engine stop. that could also be a factor.

 

[Perblue]

25 minutes ago, handfiler said:

Oh I do understand the function of the cooling system and what a thermostat does. I also understand life at -30 Celsius. Maybe you're from the deep south where it's not as relevant.

 

Second this. People up here put cardboard in font of their grilles for 2 reasons, it traps the heat generated by the motor in the engine bay causing it to warm up faster and so the rad cools less for more cabin heat. It makes a difference and they do close during warm up in the driveway for this purpose.

 

I'd bet stuck thermostat.

[dolsen]

10 hours ago, todd92 said:

When the thermostat is closed, which it should be when the engine is cold, there is no coolant flow through the radiator.  So how would the shutters have anything to do with the warm-up duration?  The shutters are a secondary means of controlling coolant temperature, once the engine is warmed up.  I did not say they have no effect, of course they do.  They have no effect during warm-up.  If you think they have an effect on warm-up, you do not understand the cooling system and the function of the thermostat.

I believe your last two sentences to be wildly in accurate. You're underestimating the cooling affect of airflow. Sure, when you're sitting still the grille shutter will have a SMALL effect on engine warm up (but still not zero), but if you start it up and immediately start driving, the air flow will have a much larger effect on warm up, in the same way it'll have an effect in engine cooling once it is up to temp.

[Waldo]

Direct quote from the 2020 Edge Factory Service Manual:

 

The active grille shutter system (when equipped) is comprised of the grille shutter assembly and the grille shutter actuator. The active grille shutter system is primarily used to maximize fuel economy by reducing aerodynamic drag on the vehicle. The active grille shutter system is also used to shorten engine warm-up time, increasing engine efficiency and providing heat to the vehicle occupants in a timely manner.

[todd92]

What do you suppose the warm-up times would be in these 3 scenarios?

 

Thermostat closed, shutters closed

 

Thermostat closed, shutters open

 

Thermostat open, shutters closed

Edited December 16, 2020 by todd92

[dolsen]

You're asking a very non-specific question, as the response you are looking for I am certain you are not expecting the response I am going to give, but still falls within the parameters given.

 

Thermostat closed, shutters closed? on a 95+ degree day, if I immediately start driving my vehicle after turning it on, 30 seconds if I drive it hard as soon as I start it up.

 

Thermostat closed, shutters open? On a 20 degree day could be 5-10 minutes depending on driving style. This affects fuel economy, emissions, and cabin temperature.

 

Thermostat open, shutter closed? I would imagine somewhere in between the first two. Based on your responses it seems you are greatly underestimating the cooling ability of air flowing over the engine.

 

Bonus answer to a question not asked: I had a 98 escort that had the thermostat stuck open and driving it in 30 degree weather the coolant never got warm enough to give me heat on a 30 minute drive, regardless of how hard I drove it. How does that translate to an edge with shutters? I can't give an exact answer, but I bet it would be similar.

 

I know the warm up times may seem trivial typing from a computer, but it makes a world of difference when it is cold outside and you want your car to be warmer and/or you need it to defrost faster.

[Waldo]

14 hours ago, todd92 said:

What do you suppose the warm-up times would be in these 3 scenarios?

 

Thermostat closed, shutters closed

 

Thermostat closed, shutters open

 

Thermostat open, shutters closed

 

If the shutters are closed, it won't really matter if the thermostat is open or not since the radiator won't have any air going through it so it will be as if it isn't part of the cooling system, which is the same thing as the thermostat does.  In reality the closed shutters are only 75% effective, so there will be some difference, but I still predict your shutters open scenario would have the longest warm-up time of the 3.

[todd92]

That flies in the face of everything I know about fluid mechanics and heat transfer, but whatever.  If the first case has a relative value of 1, I would guess 2 for 2 and 10 for 3.

[dolsen]

8 minutes ago, todd92 said:

That flies in the face of everything I know about fluid mechanics and heat transfer, but whatever.  If the first case has a relative value of 1, I would guess 2 for 2 and 10 for 3.

Enlighten us. I am not arguing with you, I am sharing my understanding of the working world that I have gained through education and practical experience. If you understand it differently or know something that we don't, then share. Don't get upset and clam up. I am in this to learn, not win an argument.

[todd92]

Thermostat open means liquid flowing through the radiator which has an order of magnitude greater coefficient of heat transfer than shutter open air flowing through the engine compartment.  Plus radiator is highly efficient at heat transfer, because that's what it is designed to do, while air flowing around parts of the engine block exterior would be highly inefficient.

[dolsen]

But the grill shutters prevent air flow through the radiator when they're closed, allowing the engine to warm up faster. Keeping the thermostat closed until the coolant reaches 180 degrees also helps the engine warm up faster.

 

I was lumping the cooling system and the engine together as one with regards to air flow and cooling capacity, but I agree with efficient vs inefficient with regards to airflow around the engine. However with the shutters being directly in front of the radiator, the argument about airflow is still very relevant, especially in cold climates. If you live in south FL where the temp rarely goes below 80, sure the shutters will likely have little effect on warm up. but if you live in Canada or Alaska where it is commonly below 0 degrees Farenheit, certainly airflow around the engine, even with a closed thermostat, will draw off a lot of heat. Less efficient heat transfer does not mean zero heat transfer. Warm up times will greatly depend on speed of travel, engine speed, engine load, ambient air temp and humidity, and elevation among a host of other factors I am sure. Ford cannot control any of those external factors aside from volume flow rate of air around the engine, unless they choose to program vehicle operation before warm up (i.e. set limits on speed and throttle input, etc.).

[todd92]

1 hour ago, dolsen said:

But the grill shutters prevent air flow through the radiator when they're closed, allowing the engine to warm up faster. Keeping the thermostat closed until the coolant reaches 180 degrees also helps the engine warm up faster.

 

I was lumping the cooling system and the engine together as one with regards to air flow and cooling capacity, but I agree with efficient vs inefficient with regards to airflow around the engine. However with the shutters being directly in front of the radiator, the argument about airflow is still very relevant, especially in cold climates. If you live in south FL where the temp rarely goes below 80, sure the shutters will likely have little effect on warm up. but if you live in Canada or Alaska where it is commonly below 0 degrees Farenheit, certainly airflow around the engine, even with a closed thermostat, will draw off a lot of heat. Less efficient heat transfer does not mean zero heat transfer. Warm up times will greatly depend on speed of travel, engine speed, engine load, ambient air temp and humidity, and elevation among a host of other factors I am sure. Ford cannot control any of those external factors aside from volume flow rate of air around the engine, unless they choose to program vehicle operation before warm up (i.e. set limits on speed and throttle input, etc.).

 

No, the engine is not air cooled, nor designed with air cooling as a consideration.  Airflow around the engine will draw off minimal heat.  Minimal, not zero.  I never said zero.

[dolsen]

5 minutes ago, todd92 said:

 

No, the engine is not air cooled, nor designed with air cooling as a consideration.  Airflow around the engine will draw off minimal heat.  Minimal, not zero.  I never said zero.

Yes, your words are not saying zero, but your responses clearly show that you are treating airflow as zero. You are correct, it is not designed to be a primarily air-cooled engine, but that is a part of the equation you cannot remove, regardless of how hard you try, and I if I was a betting man, I believe Ford engineers would take the air cooling benefits into consideration when designing the engines/vehicles. If pushing air across the radiator was the only means of cooling needed, then you wouldn't see cars overheat when doing burnouts or on dynos.

 

Surely you can understand there is a huge difference in using 95+ degree ambient air with an RH of 80%+ trying to air cool an engine vs 0 degree (or colder) air, regardless of RH to air cool an engine, especially at normal driving speeds.

 

Also, you tend to speak in absolutes. How can you make the statement that air cooling is not a consideration when @waldo posted an excerpt from the service manual stating that a secondary function of the shutter is to shorten engine warm up time? That certainly proves that Ford engineers did in fact take airflow (air-cooling) into consideration.

[Waldo]

I've seen plenty of super-computer fluid models that show how significant the airflow through the engine bay is.  Obviously it's not as big an effect as the radiator cooling, but it is significant.

 

Think of the radiator as a two-way heat exchanger.  It exchanges heat between coolant and air.  If you close the thermostat, you don't allow any coolant into the radiator, so no heat exchange can take place.  If you close the grill shutters, you don't allow any air into the radiator, so no heat exchange can take place.  A radiator is only efficient at heat transfer if there is a difference in temperature between the coolant and the air.  If the air around the radiator heats up and has nowhere to go, the heat transfer won't take place.  Now as I said, the shutters are really only about 75% effective while the thermostat is pretty much 100% effective, so it's not exactly the same.  But to bring it back to the original question, if the shutters are opening more often at cold temps on a 2020 Edge (whether through a defect, or through a programming change for some other reasons), then that can be enough to make a noticeable difference in warm up times.

Edited December 18, 2020 by Waldo

[tseller]

Hoping I am in a correct spot.  Hate feeling like I didn't search well enough...

 

My 2017 sport shows two codes this morning P1299, P2196.

 

The temp was around in the negatives this morning, VERY VERY cold.  Car wouldn't come out of limp mode, let it run for quite a while and still said engine temp was too high.

 

Is there something wrong, or is it just the cold?

[colinc755]

I don’t think the thermostat that everyone is referring to here is the problem. I too have owned a previous 2018 Edge and a 2019 Edge. I noticed that too when getting the new car. My 2018 used to get up to temp before I even left the neighborhood and the 2019 takes a long time. They made a decent amount of changes to the 2.0 and they could be using different firmware logic. It’s not a TGDI problem because both engines are the same and if it was the thermostat, it would be pretty unlikely that we both noticed the exact same thing.