2012 Ford Edge Limited Battery message

[lieufire]

Today when my wife got to work, she cut the car off via push start button and a message came on the navigation screen....."System Off to Save Battery...Please turn ignition off or start engine". anyone seen this? The battery was dead on Friday morning

and I charged it most of the day.  Something keeping the ignition energized draining the battery?

Mark

[Edgingage]

Yes! me too (unfortunately ). Somebody else posted the exact same problem in the forum specific for the 2011 Edge/MKX last February 2020.  I contributed explaining all that had been happening in my car as well.  Unfortunately the suggestions were inclined to the simple "replace the battery" which I do not think it is that a simple solution.  I'm going to re post here what I posted in the other section NOT with the intention to simply "re post" (repeat) but hoping to find somebody in this subforum interested to take the time to look at my explanation and hopefully to look at a possible cause other than simply the battery replacement.  I am going to provide here all the details and rationale I posted in the other section, again, NOT WITH THE SIMPLE INTENTION OF DOUBLE POSTING but with the genuine intention to provide as much details as possible to help with the brainstorming in this forum.  Here I go (copied and pasted from the other forum):

 

Hope to pick on some brains around here...

 

 

Edited April 13, 2020 by Edgingage

[akirby]

1 hour ago, Edgingage said:

Yes! me too (unfortunately ). Somebody else posted the exact same problem in the forum specific for the 2011 Edge/MKX last February 2020.  I contributed explaining all that had been happening in my car as well.  Unfortunately the suggestions were inclined to the simple "replace the battery" which I do not think it is that a simple solution.  I'm going to re post here what I posted in the other section NOT with the intention to simply "re post" (repeat) but hoping to find somebody in this subforum interested to take the time to look at my explanation and hopefully to look at a possible cause other than simply the battery replacement.  I am going to provide here all the details and rationale I posted in the other section, again, NOT WITH THE SIMPLE INTENTION OF DOUBLE POSTING but with the genuine intention to provide as much details as possible to help with the brainstorming in this forum.  Here I go (copied and pasted from the other forum):

 

Here's the thing - at least 9 times out of 10 if the battery is more than 2.5 years old it's a bad battery.   They have proper voltage but not enough amps to crank the vehicle.   And the only solution is a new battery.

 

There can be other causes - parasitic draws e.g. or a bad alternator.   But if the battery is 3 years old or older just replace it because it's probably on its last leg anyway.  Then if you continue to have problems you've eliminated the most common cause.

[Edgingage]

Yes, Akirby, I appreciate your suggestion, but I need you please to understand my dilemma:

As I mentioned before, the problem in my car started over two (2) years ago now.  IF the cause of this problem is the battery, why is my battery not done dead yet, by now, two years after?  Yes, your suggestion is inclined to the "trial and error" approach (if it's not the battery then try something else).  My approach is that I don't want to spend the money to replace an otherwise perfectly working battery IF I'm not sure that's the main cause of this particular problem.  Also, when you say "...but not enough amps to crank the vehicle", well, I've not had starting failures, car always cranks 3-4 times quickly before it starts; I'd think that's a pretty sharp start, even after been over 8 hours parked outside at -20 Celsius degrees (-4 F degrees), even as of today after being parked for almost three days (almost 72 hours).  I really don't want to throw away a battery that has not failed to start the engine yet under any circumstances or conditions; it can't be a "bad" battery, if it performs fine otherwise...

 

As the OP well pointed out, his battery was charged.  He's actually thinking in a similar way as me: "is it something (else) keeping the ignition energized draining the battery?"  I think that's the key question here.  Why?  Because, as I also mentioned before, the second line on the warning message reads something along this line: "Turn the ignition off or start the engine".  Well, as I mentioned before once again, the ignition is ALREADY off.  Why or what is triggering the computer to "think" that the ignition is STILL on?  For me, that's the direction we should think to troubleshoot before replacing the battery.  Something else (not the battery) is "telling" the computer the ignition is on but the engine is off (not charging).  Yes, the battery is draining because the engine is off, but the ignition is also already off as well.  There is a "disconnect" somewhere (other than in the battery) between the ignition and the computer.  "That" is where we should troubleshoot first, before replacing the battery, I think, with my respect.

Edited April 14, 2020 by Edgingage

[omar302]

I'll just throw this in, maybe it will help. This is from memory, so it might not be 100% correct. With the 2011+ Edge/MKX, there is a battery charge "monitor" system, the system works by measuring the actual drain from or charge to the battery and estimating the balance charge. There is a sensor connected to one the cables (probably negative) connected to the batter (kind of like a ring around it) So, if you charge the battery by directly connecting to the + & - terminals, the monitoring system will not detect this charge and will still have the "old" estimate, hence even if you had charged the battery fully the monitoring system will still think it is low and every time you use the car it would give you that message. You have to reset the battery monitoring system to get it to work correctly. This can be done by a proper OBD tool, or keeping the vehicle untouched ATLEAST 8 hours with no lights, doors, radio or even the keyless fob nearby.

 

Found a post on an F-150 forum, the system is called Battery Management System (BMS).

 

 

[lieufire]

Update - I replaced the battery after having it tested. The battery message still appears every time you get in the vehicle. I let it sit for 11 hours but the message still appears. I found in the workshop manual that the BMS needs to be reset with a proper scan tool. I guess I will look for a shop that can do that for me. Thanks.

[Edgingage]

8 hours ago, omar302 said:

I'll just throw this in, maybe it will help. This is from memory, so it might not be 100% correct. With the 2011+ Edge/MKX, there is a battery charge "monitor" system, the system works by measuring the actual drain from or charge to the battery and estimating the balance charge. There is a sensor connected to one the cables (probably negative) connected to the batter (kind of like a ring around it) So, if you charge the battery by directly connecting to the + & - terminals, the monitoring system will not detect this charge and will still have the "old" estimate, hence even if you had charged the battery fully the monitoring system will still think it is low and every time you use the car it would give you that message. You have to reset the battery monitoring system to get it to work correctly. This can be done by a proper OBD tool, or keeping the vehicle untouched ATLEAST 8 hours with no lights, doors, radio or even the keyless fob nearby.

 

Found a post on an F-150 forum, the system is called Battery Management System (BMS).

 

 

Finally somebody listened to my "cry"! lol.

 

Thanks Omar!  That makes complete sense for me, particularly the intermittent issue was driving me crazy, because I couldn't figure out why only sometimes, if the battery was still going strong...

 

You saved my money!  ...and my battery, ... even a longer battery life for now, not having to dispose it off yet

 

I'm going to inform/refer the OP in the other thread, if you wouldn't mind, please.

 

Thank you all!

[akirby]

12 hours ago, Edgingage said:

Yes, Akirby, I appreciate your suggestion, but I need you please to understand my dilemma:

As I mentioned before, the problem in my car started over two (2) years ago now.  IF the cause of this problem is the battery, why is my battery not done dead yet, by now, two years after?  Yes, your suggestion is inclined to the "trial and error" approach (if it's not the battery then try something else).  My approach is that I don't want to spend the money to replace an otherwise perfectly working battery IF I'm not sure that's the main cause of this particular problem.  Also, when you say "...but not enough amps to crank the vehicle", well, I've not had starting failures, car always cranks 3-4 times quickly before it starts; I'd think that's a pretty sharp start, even after been over 8 hours parked outside at -20 Celsius degrees (-4 F degrees), even as of today after being parked for almost three days (almost 72 hours).  I really don't want to throw away a battery that has not failed to start the engine yet under any circumstances or conditions; it can't be a "bad" battery, if it performs fine otherwise...

 

As the OP well pointed out, his battery was charged.  He's actually thinking in a similar way as me: "is it something (else) keeping the ignition energized draining the battery?"  I think that's the key question here.  Why?  Because, as I also mentioned before, the second line on the warning message reads something along this line: "Turn the ignition off or start the engine".  Well, as I mentioned before once again, the ignition is ALREADY off.  Why or what is triggering the computer to "think" that the ignition is STILL on?  For me, that's the direction we should think to troubleshoot before replacing the battery.  Something else (not the battery) is "telling" the computer the ignition is on but the engine is off (not charging).  Yes, the battery is draining because the engine is off, but the ignition is also already off as well.  There is a "disconnect" somewhere (other than in the battery) between the ignition and the computer.  "That" is where we should troubleshoot first, before replacing the battery, I think, with my respect.

 

You're not wrong about wanting to troubleshoot the root cause.   However, you do have some facts wrong about batteries.

 

The only way to tell if a battery is going bad is with a digital tester like the Solar BA-7 or BA-9.  When my batteries have failed in the past, it was always between 3 and 4 years old and the vehicle cranked, started and ran perfectly fine until one day it was dead as a doornail.  No amount of charging will fix a bad cell and once they go bad they're toast.

 

As an example - my 2016 MKX is 4 years old.  I put the battery on the CTek charger and fully charged it.  Then I tested it.  When new it was 730 CCA (cold cranking amps).  Now it's at 430.   It's going to die one day very soon.  I have my Li-Ion jump starter in the back seat until I can go replace it.   It's never given a warning or failed to start but it's a ticking time bomb and it will fail one day probably without warning.

 

Here's the other thing - let's say this is a different problem and you fix it.  If your battery is more than 3 years old then about 6 months from now it's going to die anyway and you'll have to replace it.  Rarely do folks get more than 4 years.   So you're not replacing a perfectly good battery - you're replacing a battery that is on its last legs - you're just doing it before it dies completely.   And worst case you've eliminated a potential problem (and at least 9 times out of 10 fixed the problem) and you don't have to worry about the battery for another 3-4 years.   That's well worth $150 to me.

[dajo2012]

When I had issues with my F150 BMS. I hooked the charger - cable to a ground on the body and not the battery -. Never had to reset anything.

[bac2010]

I was the poster in the 2011 thread on this subject.  My battery tested perfectly using the Solar BA7 and I had the battery/alternator tested a few times by others and they were both good.  I found that voltage was definitely low (12.1 volts) when I had the message pop up.  Charging with the CTEK smart charger fixes the problem  (I think better than a standard trickle charger) for at least a month.  I do think in my case that short trips are the primary cause but I wonder if the 2011 and AGM batteries are not a good mix either - never had a problem like this with standard batteries - they just died!  And I then bought a new one.

 

I charge connecting to the battery clamps (and not battery posts or body ground) so not sure how Omar's suggestion comes into play.  Never have to reset anything although I do leave everything undisturbed for over 8 hours and sometimes days so the BMS should have time to reset on its own.  Currently I am charging about once a month and only when I see the battery saver message reappear.  Charging takes about 3-4 hours.    

[akirby]

Yes short trips don't give the battery enough time to recover from starting the engine.   Just throw it on the charger once a month or once a week and it should be fine.

 

I can't recommend enough getting a SOLAR BA-7 or BA-9 tester (less than $79).  Whatever tester most of these stores and mechanics are using aren't good enough and give too many false results saying the battery is ok when it's not.

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

Quite a lot of text to peruse LOL.

1. Edgeingage, did you check/are you checking battery and starting system health with something like the BA7
2. What are your driving conditions?  Do you routinely get 20+ minutes highway time in your Edge or is it a weekend warrior?
3. Because the battery has a base capacity of 850 CCAs, it can go a bit longer under drain conditions than can the OEM battery that came with your vehicle.  Just because it seems to take a long time to display the message, does not mean the battery is not losing capacity.
4. Did you ever reset the BMS once you installed the battery?  Sometimes the DIY method of letting it sit does not work, and neither does Forscan.  A high end scan tool or Ford IDS type tool is required to set the BMS in that case.  Also make sure with Forscan or IDS etc that battery type is AGM, as it charges differently than an SLA battery.
5. Yes, even Motorcraft batteries can be bad out of the box, or go bad sooner than expected.  Have had that happen even with the Toughmax 850.  Typically I recommend Odyssey for demanding applications, but since my dataset is of only 1, I cannot say what your experience will be.  It IS a toprated battery however.

[Edgingage]

I had a long explanation written and lost it.  Probably too much text to peruse, once again LOL.  Anyway...

WWWPerfA_ZN0W:

1. No, there is no such thing (BA7 or BA9) available in the local market around here.  I just checked in Amazon for a BA7; it is available for

CDN$ 123.45 FREE SHIPPING.  Not sure if I'd want to spend that money for a tester for this problem, taking into account Bac2010's experience (see further below).

2. Short city driving, 7 min each way, Monday to Friday.

3. I know, all batteries lose capacity overtime, I know. The problem is not that it takes a long time to display the message: some times it displays it, then I shut off the engine and turn it back on and off again, and the message doesn't display then.  No time for the battery to recharge but no message shown (?)

4. No, I didn't. The battery was installed by the dealer.  I assume they reset and did everything was needed at the time.  Yes, I have a Tough Max 850 CCA AGM battery installed.

5. I don't have demanding applications; well, short city driving, if that's considered demanding.  But if an Odyssey is better than a Motorcraft Tough Max 850 CCA, I'll consider it as a replacement then.  Just please tell me the full name of the type of Odyssey battery, I assume there must be tons of variants.

 

Guys, folks, I think if we keep focusing on the battery we'll miss to troubleshooting and trying to find out a "fault" somewhere in the system.  In other words: if we understand that there is a fault somewhere in between the ignition/engine/computer, then we'll aim in that direction and eventually, hopefully will find the culprit.  If we continue "blaming" the battery, and we replace it, yes, the problematic warning message will go away, but will eventually reoccur again because the "fault" has not been found, or really fixed.

 

akirby, absolutely nothing wrong with the good general practice you advise regarding the battery. As a matter of fact, I'll throw a charger along my snow shovel and emergency kit in the trunk, just in case.  Also, nothing wrong in keeping your car top notch and staying ahead of the curve.  My approach, however, is to replace if/as/when/what is needed.  If I'd have replaced this battery 26 months ago (when I first got that warning message), I'd have probably be at the point to replace it again (26 months later, or almost 2 1/2 years now).  However, I've saved $150 using the same battery two years after the warning message appeared first time.  As a matter of fact, I have saved $300 (counting dealer labor).  I'm just trying you to understand, please, that we have another problem in our cars, other than an "old" battery.  There's a fault somewhere in the ignition/engine/computer system, something else is at fault, not only the battery.

 

Bac2010 bought the BA7 and also the CTEK (under suggestion/recommendation, both added up the cost of a brand new battery) and the problem didn't get resolved.  Battery checked good under BA7; battery restored/regenerated good under CTEK.  The problem STILL persists...  To me, that would indicate that it is not a battery issue, folks, it's something else, something else...

 

Anyway, again, I think the suggestion brought by Omar302 may lead us in the right direction, or at least in a different direction.  We'll need to clarify a little bit more what we need to do and how to do it, at least me (I'm not good at this stuff lol).

 

Thank you all, folks.

Edited April 15, 2020 by Edgingage
delete out of context content.

[bac2010]

I installed the Duralast Platinum AGM battery myself.  What I didn't do was reset the BMS manually and I'm not sure if this is somehow related to the problem.  I think many dealers forget to do this too - Edgingage, you may want to have them double check this.

 

From reading various posts, one item that doesn't get reset in the BMS using the 8 hour process is the "days" parameter which indicates how old the battery is.  This somehow affects the charging software.  I guess type of battery should be updated too to change the charging profile - in my case from standard flooded to AGM.  It took about one year after installing the new battery before the battery saver message popped up.  And now it does so every month (coincidentally it did yesterday after one month's driving).  Charged it up and ready to go today.

 

Next time I get an oil change, I'll have Ford reset the BMS manually and see if this makes a difference.  I haven't used FORScan but may look into it. 

[Edgingage]

Thanks Bac2010 for your suggestion to check/reset the BMS.  I don't have a scheduled visit to the dealer any time soon but I'll see what I need to try to do it myself.

 

For me, your situation is a good example that something else is wrong, not the battery: you had a fairly new good battery (one year old AGM) when the warning message first popped up, you bought a BA7 to check it, you also bought a CTEK to recharge/restore it.  You got and have done all the recommended things aimed at a "bad" battery as a culprit.  However, the warning message is still popping up besides all recommendations you have followed which, again, for me it's a kind of confirmation that the cause of the problem is something else than a bad battery.

 

I hope we will now be finally steering off a bad battery culprit and gearing to find a glitch somewhere in the ignition/engine/computer system/circuit.  Let's turn towards Omar302's direction to see where it takes us.

 

Thank you all.

Edited April 15, 2020 by Edgingage

[omar302]

3 hours ago, bac2010 said:

From reading various posts, one item that doesn't get reset in the BMS using the 8 hour process is the "days" parameter which indicates how old the battery is.

 

1 hour ago, Edgingage said:

Thanks Bac2010 for your suggestion to check/reset the BMS.  I don't have a scheduled visit to the dealer any time soon but I'll see what I need to try to do it myself.

 

The "number of days" parameter, AFAIK, was implemented in the 2015+ Edge, not on earlier models. The only BMS reset on the 2014 & earlier models is what was mentioned before that can be done with a scan tool or the 8 hour time. What I see from both your cases is that both of you have AGM batteries and I think I read somewhere that AGM batteries charge "slower" than regular batteries. Do both of you drive short trips regularly?  Maybe that is one of the causes..

[Edgingage]

Thanks Omar302.  Yes, I regularly do 10-15 min city trips.  But I have done long HW trips (3.5 hours HW each way) and still have gotten that warning message when parked at home.  That's what I initially thought, that a long HW trip would be sufficient to fully recharge the battery and then the warning message was going to go away after a long HW trip, but I got very discouraged when I parked after 3 h HW driving and still got the warning message...

I'm going to see what happens after parked for more than 8 h with the fob out of reach.  That's pretty much the condition I have at work.  And I know that the warning message not always comes up.  I'm going to pay attention to that 8h interval from now on.  Hopefully this will at least answer the "mystery" about the intermittence of the warning message...

 

BTW, folks: I'm looking at those restoring/recharging tools available around our local market reasonable priced.  One of those tools has a charging limit of 230 Ah and it reads that if the battery amp-hour capacity is more than 230 Ah, this tool will not recharge/restore the battery.  My (probably stupid) question asking for your help folks is: does any of you know what the charging limit is for a Ford Motorcraft Tested Tough Max BXT-65-850 AGM battery (picture shown below), or could any of you tell me where I can find it out, where I should look for to find that info?

 

BTW: manufacturer and several suppliers state that this battery is good for 8 years or 100 months (but I haven't been able to find the info about its Ah capacity).

 

Thank you all in advance.

 

 

Edited April 15, 2020 by Edgingage

[omar302]

BXT-65 batteries, as far as I know, are NOT an AGM betteries. Found the below video maybe helpful: Also I remember @macbwt had a detailed video on the charging system, linked below.

 

 

 

 

 

[bac2010]

I definitely have an AGM battery!  I do take shorter trips since retiring and battery message frequency (once a month) reflects that.  No long trips planned for a while.

 

If what Omar says is correct that the 8 hour quarantine of the Edge is enough to reset the BMS for 2011 model year then I guess I don't need Ford to do a manual reset.  I have seen people, primarily on the F150 forums, somehow disabling BMS.  I assume this then reverts back to the old straight charging process like my wife's 2007 RAV4 (with the V6 engine!) which only has battery issues when the battery dies.  I do need to do a BA7 test on her car soon though just to see how the battery is doing.  

[Edgingage]

Thanks Omar302.

 

Hum, now I'm at lost...  I don't know/remember where I got the info that my battery is an AGM one...  No idea.  It's a lead-acid type battery then, I assume, how can I know?

 

I'm back to square one.  Not sure where to jump in...  I need some time to "restore" myself now lol

 

Thanks also for the informative videos/links.

 

Thank you all.

Edited April 16, 2020 by Edgingage

[bac2010]

Edgingage - reserve capacity for your battery is 150 minutes. Reserve is rated at 25 amps, so 150 minutes * 25 A / 60 minutes / hour = 62.5 Ah.  I think most charging systems will be OK.  I have no complaints on the CTEK smart charger although they are not the cheapest.

[Edgingage]

Hello bac2010:

 

Yes, I found the reserve capacity for my battery (you're right: 150 min), but I couldn't find its amperage rate so, THANK YOU!

 

I also found the same CTEK you bought, I think: CTEK (56-353) Multi US 7002 12-Volt Battery Charger, Black (CDN$ 205.05 around here); but some websites give me a warning about the CTEK 40-206 MXS 5.0 12-Volt Battery Charger (priced at CND$ 119.99, previously recommended here) reading: "This does not fit your 2011 Ford Edge" (?).  Very confusing, for me at least.

Anyway, as you say, I'll find any smart charger that also restores at the same time.  That's what I need to make sure now, what spec (or key word descriptor) to look in a smart charger for me to know for sure it will ALSO restore the battery, not only recharge it.

 

BTW, the suggestion given by Omar302 (thanks again) to leave the car more than 8 hours away from the fob, worked for me, and actually explained (at least in part) why the message was showing intermittently, what was driving me puzzling crazy.  Based on Omar302's hint, this is my interpretation of why I almost always get the message when I parked at work after my short run from home:

With the same short run coming back from work I not always get the message when I parked at home, probably because the fob has been away from the car for more than 8 hours parked at work and the BMS has had time to reset itself by then.  After parked at home overnight again, for what we all know now connecting all the dots, it appears that the BMS may click again after detecting what appears to indicate a low battery charge; and that's probably why I get the message back again when I parked at work after my daily short run from home.

 

That's what I take...  Everything is now starting to have a rationale, to make sense (at least for me now), and it's helping to explain the "mystery" about the intermittence of the warning message. That's was throwing me completely off...

 

For now, until I find a suitable smart charger, I'm going to hook the car overnight to an old tender I have at home (12V/2A).  I'm getting the warning message more often now so, the battery may be getting to its end! lol

 

Thanks again; thanks EVERYBODY!

Edited April 17, 2020 by Edgingage
Correction regarding CTEK models

[handfiler]

$205 is grossly overpriced for a maintenance charger IMHO. I have several vehicles that are all connected to maintenance chargers. 2 of them are Battery Tender Plus, the third is a Battery Tender Junior. I think they're overpriced and under powered. My favorite is the cheap 5.5 amp Mroinge MBC055 maintenance charger currently hooked up to my Nautilus. It covers wet cell, AGM and Lithium as well as 6 and12 volt. $43 Canadian at Amazon.

 

Mroinge MBC055

 

[akirby]

57 minutes ago, handfiler said:

$205 is grossly overpriced for a maintenance charger IMHO. I have several vehicles that are all connected to maintenance chargers. 2 of them are Battery Tender Plus, the third is a Battery Tender Junior. I think they're overpriced and under powered. My favorite is the cheap 5.5 amp Mroinge MBC055 maintenance charger currently hooked up to my Nautilus. It covers wet cell, AGM and Lithium as well as 6 and12 volt. $43 Canadian at Amazon.

 

Mroinge MBC055

 

That’s not a maintenance charger - it has multiple modes including  battery reconditioning.  And it’s only $93 US.

[handfiler]

It's an expensive maintenance charger with a desulphation function. If your battery is in need of that process it's time for a new one anyway. By the way Edgingage and I live in Canada so $205 not $93.

Edited April 17, 2020 by handfiler