2012 Edge Brakes going to floor

[ldruth61]

Here is my story. Brake Booster replaced about 4 yrs ago under warranty. Brakes went out again a few months ago and took to ford. They said booster pump again. I did not want to pay 1100.00 so i did it myself. Brake still go do floor. Replaced Booster Vacuum Line & Check Valve and no change. Just changed the Master Cylinder and did auto bleed and manually bleed brakes 3 times. Tried the driving backwards bit, they may have firmed them up some. If there is any difference it is hardly noticeable but they do seem to be a little firmer as they go to the floor to stop.  What the hell do I do now? I don't know where else to turn and Ford can kiss my ass. Thank you for your help

Dean

Edited February 17, 2020 by ldruth61

[mikeyhd]

Do you recall "the first time" the pedal went to the floor?  Was it during an ABS event where the system actuated the Anti-lock feature and you could feel the pedal pulsating?

I have an intermittent issue where the pedal goes to the floor. It happens every time I lose traction on snow, ice, slush, loose gravel or even hitting a pothole under hard braking. It is only temporary lasting sometimes minutes, sometimes hours. One time it happened as I crossed the border from Canada to Buffalo and didn't return to normal until I was a mere few blocks from home in Delaware.

Dealer was no help....... "unable to recreate problem". But I discovered I was far from alone with the problem. I am quite surprised that no one has filed a complaint with the government.

A valve sticks inside the HCU causing a pressure bypass condition. Replacing the unit seems to be the fix but at over $1700 I am living with it. I have found that sometimes...... sometimes..... slamming down hard on the pedal while it's in the stuck position frees things up. But it definitely is heart stopping when it occurs.

When you did the bleed, was it a pressure bleed? Vacuum bleed? Or the standard pump the pedal bleed? My last bleed was a pressure bleed and the next time I do my brakes I am going to do the HCU (ABS activated) bleed under pressure to see if I can dislodge whatever is causing the valve to stick.

 

[ldruth61]

H Mike

Thanks for the reply. The first time it happen I was just driving on a normal road with normal dry conditions braking for a turn. No ABS even. The bleeding has been all manual other then the auto bleed using my scanner. After using the auto bleeder it makes them even worse, which makes me think it is bleeding air out of the HCU. After changing out master cylinder I introduced a lot of air into the system. I think the system is firmer and I believe the master cylinder replacement may have solved the original . I read that it can take 8 to 10 bleeding sequences to get all the air from the HCU and lines. I am going to do another 8 manual and auto bleeds. I am thinking I still have air in the HCU and need to do additional bleeding of that unit with the Auto system followed by manual bleed of each line at wheels. Do you think pressure bleeding would be more effective? I am hoping this will help. Will keep you posted.

Dean

Edited February 22, 2020 by ldruth61
update

[bb56]

When this happened to me, the rear brake caliper was bad. The rear has automatic adjustment everytime you use the park brake. My caliper would no longer ratchet to close the gap between the piston and the inner brake pad. When my neighbor suggested a bend or stuck pad, I examined them more closely and saw a 1/16" or larger gap between the pad and the piston. Nothing I did would adjust the caliper piston so I replaced the caliper, bled the brakes and voila!

Normal brakes again.  Check pad clearance on the rear inner pads, and make sure the caliper closes rock solid when someone steps on the brake.  My park brake worked ok but not great so that was another clue. A third clue was that the rear disk surfaces were not clean, meaning the brakes were not closing tightly on the disk.

 

Hope it helps!

 

[mikeyhd]

Dean

I have a 2012 Limited AWD. I invested in a "power bleeder" from Amazon. If you are pretty handy you can get away with just buying the specific cap for the car and making one yourself but I like the "store bought", it has a pressure gauge and it's nice to see it pump up to 50lbs before I crack open a bleeder. I can see where if you introduced air at the master cylinder you got a ways to go before all the air gets out...... then there's the uncertainty if it's in the HCU or one of 4 calipers. What a headache. A gallon of fresh fluid and one of those pressure bleeders will do the job. Good luck and happy hunting!!!

 

[ldruth61]

Thanks BB56 & Mikeyhd. 

I will check the caliber and if all good will likely get a power bleeder. I have the auto bleed scanner that is supposed to bleed the hmu into lines and then you bleed the lines. But I suppose having it under pressure would be even better.

Thanks

Dean

[bb56]

Will be interested to hear what fixed it.

 

[slb2387]

On 2/21/2020 at 7:11 PM, mikeyhd said:

 

Help..... how closely related are caliper problems and ABS tone ring?:

 

My mechanic is trying to tell me that an ABS broken tone ring is my current one and only problem with the vehicle, but I believe he is just covering up for a few bad brake jobs.  He was 100% adamant that this issue now has nothing to do with any of the prior brake work, even though the sounds and symptoms are exactly alike. 

Brake work included:

1/24/19-  first time checking it out after making weird brake noises-  pads are rotors were fine- found 'hanging' calipers which were cleaned and lubed which was supposed to fix the problem.....  noises went away for  few weeks then slowly came back...

4/18/19- inspection time; front pads and rotors are now needed (how could they have been fine in Jan then less than 4 months later I need pads AND rotors); replaced left front caliper ONLY...... ran relatively smoothly for a few weeks to months but by August noises slowly started returning again (as well as what they and some transmission guy referred to as a 'misfire' but I'm wondering now if that was associated with the loss of power caused by caliper issues?) until the noises and 'misfire' became the worst yet in November

12/3/19- rear pads and rotors are now needed as well as 2 new rear tires.... ran smooth for a few days then noises came back again and just like before they've progressively gotten worse 

2/28/19-  now they say as stated before that the current problem with brakes is this ABS tone ring and that is it.  The ABS light NEVER came on, not a single flash!  Car also is shaking a bit when braking, leaking a bit of fluid, experiences that 'misfire' or loss of power feeling, doesn't make all the noises at every stop.... 

 

I am completely ignorant when it comes to the mechanical workings of vehicles, but an easy google search has me questioning whether I'm getting totally taken advantage of (not only do they say he needs the CV axle thing but 2 more new tires and a left front sway bar due to a supposedly rattle noise they heard which is the one noise I haven't heard!)......

[ldruth61]

BB56 & Mikeyhd

Well I tried to bleed with a power bleeder and it made no difference. I basically pushed new fluid in but did not help tighten up my brakes. Still go to the floor. I tried removing the ABS fuses and it made no difference either. I checked calibers to make sure they are putting pressure on brake pads and there is no gaps. I have no idea what to do now.

I have loved my edge, but I am so disappointed in ford at this point. I have never had so much problems with any newer car EVER. 

Any other suggestions?

Dean

[bb56]

hey Dean,

How does the parking brake feel? Will it hold the car still while in gear?  If the parking brake is not adjusted properly, it will not adjust the rear caliper pistons. It could be possible that the rear brakes are not adjusting. When the parking brake is applied, the cable should be very tight at each rear wheel. I've seen where the cable and it's shield get water in them and rust to the point where they can't move.

Maybe you want to check for proper operation of the parking brake system.

[ldruth61]

The e brake works but is not super tight. I did not know you could manually adjust the e brake cable on the edge but i will look into it.

An update on power bleed. I thought it did not help at first but it did firm them up slightly where as they still go to low to floor, but are more firm as they go down. The bleeder did not push Fluid very fast and i contacted motive  the manufacture and he suggested applying slight pressure on brake pedal, so i may try that. Im thinking maybe with such low pressure maybe it was not enough to get all the air out from all the Crevices in brake components. I was using 20 psi per instructions
dean  

[bb56]

I wish I knew more about the e brake Dean but I've not seen one. Can someone else jump in here?

 

If the rear brake caliper pistons are traveling because they are not adjusting, they'll gobble up a lot of the fluid from the Master cylinder. One thing I remember is that if I very quickly double pumped the brake pedal, it would be higher the second time - meaning additional fluid from the reservoir was pushed to the brake caliper before it pushed it back after releasing the pedal from the first push.

 

As a troubleshooting step, I would try several times to quickly double pump during a hard stop (remember to check behind you...LOL) to see if the pedal behaves better on the second push. If it seems to grab higher, then something is using up the fluid from the first push. I had to do it several times and if I was real quick the pedal was much better.

 

If you have someone who can push the brake pedal while the car is up on a jack stand, you could look at the rear caliper after removing the tire. See if the first push is moving the caliper piston (the inner pads are pushed by the piston, the outer pads are held in place by the caliper.) Movement is very slight. The whole caliper slides on the two pins that must be greased and move freely as the piston squeezes the inner pad, rotor, and outer pad together.  If either the inner pad or the outer pad is sticking, they could be flexing which would consume more fluid.

 

In general, after my neighbor pointed that out, I took the whole caliper off to check its operation and found the piston fully retracted into the caliper. My pads were slightly worn thus giving the piston too much room to travel. So you can pull the caliper, clean the pad mounting surfaces and use brake grease to lube them slightly, make sure the two slide bolts move freely and have plenty of grease under the boots.

 

I'm not a know-it-all, but I am reflecting on why it took me so darn long to figure out a soft brake pedal condition where my pedal was close to the floor but still stopping the car. I think the front brakes were doing all the work. I bled them and found no real difference. I knew the booster was good (no noises and it would pull the brake pedal down when I started the car with my foot on it.) So I bit the bullet and replaced the master cylinder which was a waste of time and money, but thought it was not bled properly again. And finally someone pointed me to inspect the calipers and pads closely. I already checked that the pads were still pretty thick, but went back again as suggested and there it was. To me, brakes should be child's play, but I did not pay attention to details and I suffered time and money for it.

 

If you're still uncertain, maybe try putting new pads in the rear. The thicker material may improve the pedal and then you know something is up in those calipers.

 

Hope this helps because it drove me crazy until I replaced the caliper ($90 at NAPA for Motorcraft replacement.)

 

Good luck!

Bart

[ldruth61]

Dd56

thanks for the great explanation. My rear brake pads are pretty much new, less then 10k on them. But when i had the tires off and had someone put on the brakes i did not see any movement and no gaps between pads, caliber piston and rotor. Everything looked tight. I assumed it was because the pads are new. I did the brakes myself and i believe i lubed everything property. But maybe i need to reinspect them. By the way a fast brake or double pump does make the brake pedal stay high and brake hard. So maybe that is because the backs are not engaging making the front end dive when i brake, like maybe it is only the front brakes engaging. 
How can i confirm the rear are not engaging? Should i see the caliber me at all with new pads? Maybe i need to touch them when someone brakes to feel if they are engaging. I just had to waste more time. They worked fine and suddenly stop. Don't get that 

dean

.  

Edited March 25, 2020 by ldruth61

[bb56]

Hey Dean,

I feel your pain because this should be straightforward - right? I was frustrated on how long it took me to fix it. 

 

To answer your question - how to confirm the rear are not engaging - a few thoughts come to mind:

1) Are the rotors shiny/clean? if so, they are likely getting at least some pad contact.

2) Try riding the brakes (foot on the brakes while driving forward) for a quarter mile or so and see if the rear wheels feel as hot as the front. Even better if you have an Infrared contact-less thermometer. My daughter had a sticking brake pad and she came home complaining it was grinding loudly. I got my thermometer and aimed it through the wheel openings at the rotor and caliper. It was 200 deg F while the others were 90 deg F.  So this may give you an easy way to tell. Harbor freight had them for cheap when I got mine and I use it for many things. I suspect if they aren't working right the temp will be noticeably cooler than the fronts. (for the record, she never uses her parking brake and the calipers did not adjust causing a lot of play in the piston-to-pad opening, which in turn, caused the pad to tilt and bind)

3) Not sure if you regard the "e brake" as Emergency Brake or Electronic parking brake. The Emergency brake to me is also the manual parking brake using the left most pedal under the dash. If you don't use it, the rear brakes don't adjust properly, if at all. If you have electronic parking brake, there is a button someplace to set it on. or off. All that said, can you drive with the parking brake set easily or do you feel them trying to hold the car still. Mine will let me go forward (because I forget to release it (LOL) but the dash will ding-ding me until I do. The fact is I can move the car fairly easily by stepping on the gas, but it holds the car on a hill in neutral.  

 

One of the things I did to try to get my bad caliper to adjust was to go back and forth alternately pushing on the brakes then the parking brake. I must have done it 20 times but mine didn't change - the caliper was simply broken.

 

My 2011 has the manual parking brake. When I applied it, I could see that the cable at the top of the caliper pulled the lever on the caliper toward the front of the car which causes the piston to push against the pads. Even though my caliper was bad, my problem was that the piston should stay close to the pad even after releasing the parking brake. Mine didn't - it went all the way back in. It doesn't sound like this is your problem though, but if you remove the caliper, is it nice and tight to the rotor or does it come off easily? It should be a little stiff if it is adjusting correctly. 

 

** IMPORTANT ** this just occurred to me:

When you put your new pads on a while back, how did you get the rear pistons back into the calipers? There is a special procedure to rotate it back (like screwing it in.) BUT: when you do, you have to align the pin on the brake pad to the slot on the piston! Check out MacBWT's video here to see what I mean.  If the pin on the pad is not in the slot on the piston, you will lose a lot of braking power in the rear and the parking brake may never adjust it properly. You may want to double check this. 

 

Hope this helps.

 

BB56 (Bart)

[ldruth61]

bb56

Thanks for all that great info. When I did the brakes I made sure the slots in piston were aligned. This just suddenly happen. I would thing if that was the issue this would have happen along time ago. And I always use my parking brake (e brake). when I was bleeding my brakes I my rotors looked clean, if I remember correctly. I am going to do the drive test first and if there is a difference in temperature from front to back I will pull the back tires and put it on jacks and pull the calibers and make sure everything is working correctly. I really appreciate all your in site. Hopefully I can get to the bottom of this.

By the way. I did try the driving backwards and braking hard and no noticeable difference, but I did not try it with my parking brake. I will give that it another shot also.

Dean

 

UPDATE - Just went out and did the braking backwards and using parking brake. May have firmed up some. Checked the rotors. Front was hotter then back. Then driving back home i rode the brakes for a while and then checked. Both front and back were about equal as far as hot to the touch. 

 

Edited March 26, 2020 by ldruth61

[bb56]

Hi Dean,

I'm out of ideas here. I remember the backing up and hard stops 'seemed' to firm them up but it really didn't help me either.  If all wheels were hot with shiny rotors after riding the brakes, then they appear to be working - just poorly , right?

 

As far as I can tell, your brakes were fine but making noise in December '19 but you said you needed calipers and pads. Did that happen? Did the brakes feel good afterwards?

 

What about February (2020 I assume) when they said it was ABS related and you need a tone ring? I would invest in getting Forscan running and look at all the codes that may be in the ABS system. A Tone Ring would make noise if it came loose (there is a thread on this forum about someone fixing theirs and the noise it makes.)  Even though I use Forscan, and no codes were set, I found a road with dirt edges and got my ABS to kick in so that I knew it was working with no codes. I can't say for sure that I managed to get the rear ABS going though. I would manually check the Tone rings by tapping each one lightly with a screwdriver to see if they are tight on the drive shaft. All that said, I don't know how it makes the pedal low unless the HCU is fouled with air and it's not kicking in or stuck in an open position somehow but I'm getting out of my depth quickly here.

 

When my caliper was bad, the brake pedal would go close enough to the floor that my other foot could not fit under the pedal. Needless to say I was driving very defensively. 

 

If I think of something else, i'll post. If you find a good local garage, or even a brake shop, maybe they can diagnose it for you. The dealer had their chance.  But check forscan for ABS codes.

 

If you fix it, let us know what did it.

 

[ldruth61]

Bb56

you have the wrong guy. I never said my calibers needed replaced. I have a scanner and have no codes. 
thanks for your help

dean

[bb56]

oops! I see my error. I was trying to track down all that has gone on with your brakes to make sure we didn't miss anything.

Good luck Dean

 

 

 

[MarcoMarcoMann]

I've tried most of these things and my pedal still goes down.  I can pump the pedal and it's higher but doesn't want to stop.  New master cylinder, trick rotors and pads, stainless steel brake lines and Motul racing brake fluid after fluid flush.  Computer aided config of ABS and I still hear a noise like a doggie chew toy inside the cabin when I push the pedal.  I drive my car hard and it's scary with these brakes.  Anyone have the chew toy sound in the cabin?

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

We have had some ABS/HCU failures on the gen 1.5, but am assuming the ABS has been bled properly along with the main brake system.

 

Have you tried flushing the system yet / putting in all new fluid?

 

Sometimes a bushing on the brake pedal goes bad, creating that sound.  If the brake booster (Motorcraft?) is verified good, then it is the pedal.  Though it should affect braking action.

 

Is the new MC Motorcraft?  We had a lot of problems on older Fords with using new/Chinese units, and ultimately had to go back to remanufactured Motorcraft.  May even want to snag a used one off car-part.com or LKQ etc.

Edited April 14, 2020 by WWWPerfA_ZN0W

[sandore]

Had the same problem and that's because my master cylinder was leaking.

[2kool]

On 4/10/2020 at 7:28 PM, MarcoMarcoMann said:

I've tried most of these things and my pedal still goes down.  I can pump the pedal and it's higher but doesn't want to stop.  New master cylinder, trick rotors and pads, stainless steel brake lines and Motul racing brake fluid after fluid flush.  Computer aided config of ABS and I still hear a noise like a doggie chew toy inside the cabin when I push the pedal.  I drive my car hard and it's scary with these brakes.  Anyone have the chew toy sound in the cabin?

yes,  i have that little squeak now as my pedal slowly goes down farther than it ever did.    I hope I can trace this to e-brake adjust or simply bad rear caliper. started shortly after we used the e brake (2013 edge) for the 1st time in a long while.... I did have a stuck rear caliper about a year ago on the driver side, I replaced it and has been fine so hoping it is just time to swap out the other rear caliper. will do some testing later today. 

[enigma-2]

Probably needs an ABS bleed. Dealer can do it with diagnostic tool. (Most likely a valve stuck open in the ABS module).

 

Happened to me a few years ago. Was in for an oil change. Told dealer I had a soft pedal and went to floor. After I got the car back an hour or so later, had a firm pedal. Said they bled something. Posted here and response was they bled the ABS valve. Never charged me. No problems since.

[2kool]

dealer just did the free booster replacement and tested m/c. problem still exist, says it has to be the HCU , wants $1,400.00  to replace it.   not happening.  will question them on the ABS  bleed. going to pick it up shortly. thanks.

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

some have had better luck by rebleeding the main system AFTER the ABS bleed, so there's that.