Edge Low Speed Surge/Buck - Transmission

[Toby99]

On 11/10/2021 at 3:28 PM, Breez said:

Toby99, I would present that letter to the service manager, also ask if he would submit a hotline request, if they don't find the problem. 

 

Great suggestion.  Have a copy ready.

[Toby99]

On 11/23/2021 at 10:09 PM, rafeeki said:

I have the same problem with my 2019 edge built before Nov 2018

On a whim I thought of mixing it up and used S mode then went back to regular mode. 

There was a marked improvement.

 

I also tried using my paddle shifter and got up to 8th gear, it has to be at approx. 2000rpm or greater to kick in.

 

My suspicion is it has to do with oil flow in the unit but that is my uninformed suspicion.

 

It's worth trying it.

 

I believe it's a badly designed transmission.  Don't believe Ford has any plans to replace the ones that are defective.  If it was simply a software problem, why all the TSB's that have done nothing.

[Toby99]

On 11/30/2021 at 12:07 PM, 52K said:

My story is basically the same as 95% of the posters on this thread. 2019 Edge Titanium bucks and surges at low speeds. Three times to dealership, no change. 

 

Question: Has anyone tried one of these after market performance modules that retune your vehicle? Expensive, but if it worked, I'd spend the money.

 

I haven't.  If you decide to give it a try please let us know the outcome.

[ajhart1000]

It seems that since the transmission knocking noise been going on, the transmission shifting has been smoother. I did get an oil change at the dealership and did not see on the ticket where any reset or update was performed. I can't explain it but since the knocking/clanking noise happened, the more it has smoothed out the shifting. Not sure if the colder temps have helped, but it was definitely more prevalent on warm mornings. I guess I'll know next summer if things are better. It is very strange.

[MNTBrew]

This question is mostly directed at Toby99 but anyone that is experiencing the bucking/shudder/jerk condition with the 8F35 and 8F57 transmission.  When you say that your vehicle has a buck/shudder/jerk condition, does your vehicle physically jerk or lurch forward when the transmission shifts? If so, what gear do you think it is shifting to? I ask because I work as an Auto Tech at an independent shop and quite often I will have a vehicle in my bay for a specific issue but I am unable to replicate the concern per the customers description. At this point I have to talk to the customer myself and sometimes have them drive the vehicle for me so I can observe what the issue is that they are having. The reason for this is that a description of an issue can mean something to one person and something completely different to another person. A couple observations of mine that relate to the 8 speed auto and transmission tuning in general. The first is that I have driven a couple of the new escapes with the 8 speed transaxle, it may be a smaller version than the 8F35 but I'm not sure, and the only shifting or transmission issue that I noticed was the tachometer bounced twice after the 2-3 shift as I accelerated through an intersection and the 2-3 shift occured as I went through the low spot on the other end of the crown in the road and that caused my foot to bounce on the gas pedal slightly. My guess is that the throttle is some what touchy and that is what caused the rpm bounce and a slight shudder feeling when that happened. The rest of my time driving the Escape, the roads were smooth and I never experienced that issue again. My other observation has to due with late model transmission tuning for most 6 speed and higher ratio count transmissions. On most newer automatics the torque convertor will lock up fairly early in the ratio spread, generally in 2nd or 3rd gear already, and that can be described as a transmission slip or shudder depending on a persons sensitivity or understanding of the transmission operation. Quite often the way the torque convertor lock up function is programed, results in the 2-3 shift then a slight rpm increase and about 2 seconds later the rpms will drop again, that is the torque convertor locking up. I have had customers who swore their transmission was slipping or described it as a shudder because the rpms dropped a second time in such short succession when that second "shift" occurred which again is the torque convertor locking up. This is a long post I know but sometimes the key to fixing a vehicle or confirming that it is in fact working correctly is understanding what the customer is experiencing in person or making sure that we are both on the same page as far as what they are describing.

[Toby99]

On 12/28/2021 at 10:24 PM, MNTBrew said:

Thanks for posting.  I'll do my best to answer.

This question is mostly directed at Toby99 but anyone that is experiencing the bucking/shudder/jerk condition with the 8F35 and 8F57 transmission.  When you say that your vehicle has a buck/shudder/jerk condition, does your vehicle physically jerk or lurch forward when the transmission shifts?  Yes.   If so, what gear do you think it is shifting to?  1st to 2nd.  Driving slowly, 15 - 20 mph.   I ask because I work as an Auto Tech at an independent shop and quite often I will have a vehicle in my bay for a specific issue but I am unable to replicate the concern per the customers description. At this point I have to talk to the customer myself and sometimes have them drive the vehicle for me so I can observe what the issue is that they are having. The reason for this is that a description of an issue can mean something to one person and something completely different to another person.  I have had two service techs in the vehicle while I was driving.  Both felt it.  One suggested I drive faster.  Both said it was "normal operation".  At another dealershiip the service tech drove the vehicle and experienced the issue.  Even documented it on the ticket.  He called Ford but nothing was done other then resetting the PCM.    A couple observations of mine that relate to the 8 speed auto and transmission tuning in general. The first is that I have driven a couple of the new escapes   I drove an Escape as a loner vehicle from a third dealership.  No issues.  Transmission shifted better than my Edge.   with the 8 speed transaxle, it may be a smaller version than the 8F35 but I'm not sure, and the only shifting or transmission issue that I noticed was the tachometer bounced twice after the 2-3 shift as I accelerated through an intersection and the 2-3 shift occured as I went through the low spot on the other end of the crown in the road and that caused my foot to bounce on the gas pedal slightly.  Yes, and I have asked mutiple times in earlier posts if the accelerator pedal sensitivity is adjustable.  I have also noticed I have a problem holding the rpm at a set number.  I first noticed this when I had the oil changed and was asked to hold the rpm at 2000.  I could not.  It was either idle or over 2000, close to 2500.  That's why I thought the problem might be an over sensitive accelerator causing an upshift shift, and then slightly lifting your foot causing a downshift.   My guess is that the throttle is some what touchy and that is what caused the rpm bounce and a slight shudder feeling when that happened.  I too have always seen a bouncing tach. I do not see a solid shift when looking at the tach on either upshift or downshifts.  I always see a bounce in the tach.   The rest of my time driving the Escape, the roads were smooth and I never experienced that issue again. My other observation has to due with late model transmission tuning for most 6 speed and higher ratio count transmissions. On most newer automatics the torque convertor will lock up fairly early in the ratio spread, generally in 2nd or 3rd gear already, and that can be described as a transmission slip or shudder depending on a persons sensitivity or understanding of the transmission operation. Quite often the way the torque convertor lock up function is programed, results in the 2-3 shift then a slight rpm increase and about 2 seconds later the rpms will drop again, that is the torque convertor locking up. I have had customers who swore their transmission was slipping or described it as a shudder because the rpms dropped a second time in such short succession when that second "shift" occurred which again is the torque convertor locking up.  I have owned many vehicles, most Ford but other domestic and foreign.  I have never, and I mean never experienced such horribly designed transmission.  My last vehicle was a 2000 Ford Explorer with 275k miles.  With the original transmission, it shifted better than my 2019 Edge Titanium.   This is a long post I know but sometimes the key to fixing a vehicle or confirming that it is in fact working correctly is understanding what the customer is experiencing in person or making sure that we are both on the same page as far as what they are describing.  What I fail to understand is why Ford will not or can not fix the problem.  If it's only my vehicle, replace the transmission with one that works properly. Problem fixed.  Lets say the headlights turn off intermitently. Would you be satified if Ford said no one else is reporting a similar problem.  Or not enought people have reported the problem so we are not going to fix your lights?  No!  At this point I believe the problem is a badly designed transmission or transmission software and Ford isn't interested in fixing it hoping people will just accept it.  It's that or people will tire of the issue and trade.  Either way the problem is still there.  Hope this has helping in some way.  It's all I can offer which to me is more than Ford has  done.

 

 

[Jim70]

We all have to face it, Ford just doesn’t care about a car that is not one of their largest sellers. And add to that Ford has already planned on discontinuing the Edge after the 2023 year (The Ford Edge and its more luxurious twin, the Lincoln Nautilus, will be discontinued after the 2023 model year, according to Automotive News)  If we owned F150s, Explorers or even Escapes our problem would have been solved by now. What Ford is forgetting is that this was my first Ford and I loved it except for “the problem”. Now it it will be my last Ford.

A total shame by any standard! 

 

[Breez]

What octane fuel is everyone using?  Wonder if it could be fuel related. I use regular at 87 and I am going to try a higher octane.

[Jim70]

Don’t waste your time. For five straight months are used Costco 92 premium which by the way is also a top-tier fuel. There was no change. I am back to Costco regular fuel

[rafeeki]

Since my issue of jerking is noticeable while coming to a stop from a reasonable speed I suspect it could be due to either the transmission downshifting or the antilock breaks kicking in. 

 

Has anyone pursued that angle?

[Daniel Fonseca]

It is the transmission, don't waste your time with antilock or fuel system, the transmission is garbage, I'm waiting for Ford to man up and face the issue correctly. Can't do anything at the moment, just hope!

[rafeeki]

21 minutes ago, Daniel Fonseca said:

It is the transmission, don't waste your time with antilock or fuel system, the transmission is garbage, I'm waiting for Ford to man up and face the issue correctly. Can't do anything at the moment, just hope!

 

[rafeeki]

I have 30000 mile on it so far. Lease expires in June 22.

I wonder how much of the drivetrane warranty will cover in case the transmission konks out?

I'm intending to buy it at end of lease and keep for an additional 2 years.

Edited January 10, 2022 by rafeeki

[omar302]

11 hours ago, rafeeki said:

I have 30000 mile on it so far. Lease expires in June 22.

I wonder how much of the drivetrane warranty will cover in case the transmission konks out?

I'm intending to buy it at end of lease and keep for an additional 2 years.

 

Should be covered fully. From the 2019 Warranty Guide:

Quote

 

Extended warranty coverage periods are available for certain vehicle parts and conditions. Specifically,

(1) Your vehicle’s Powertrain components are covered for five years or 60,000 miles, whichever occurs first. The extended coverage applies to the Engine: all internal lubricated parts, cylinder block, cylinder heads, electrical fuel pump, powertrain control module, engine mounts, flywheel, injection pump, manifold (exhaust and intake), manifold bolts, oil pan, oil pump, seals and gaskets, engine thermostat, engine thermostat housing, timing chain cover, timing chain (gears or belt), turbocharger/supercharger unit, valve covers, water pump; Transmission: all internal parts, clutch cover, seals and gaskets, torque converter, transfer case (including all internal parts), transmission case, transmission mounts; Front-Wheel Drive: axle shafts, front bearings, seals and gaskets, universal and constant velocity joints; Rear-Wheel Drive: axle shafts, rear bearings, center support bearing, drive axle housing (including all internal parts), drive shaft, retainers, supports, seals and gaskets, universal and constant velocity joints. Four-Wheel/All-Wheel Drive: axle shafts, bearings (front and rear), center support bearing, drive shafts, final drive housing (including all internal parts), hubs-automatic front locking (four-wheel drive), locking rings (four-wheel drive), seals and gaskets, universal and constant velocity joints.

 

 

Edited January 11, 2022 by omar302

[omar302]

Seems there is an updated TSB 21-2389 to also include 2021 (built UpTo March 11, 2021) model years to fix the issue. Again PCM update and Transmission Solenoid Strategy reprogram.

(Source)

MC-10203649-0001.pdf

Edited January 11, 2022 by omar302

[Toby99]

Interesting update.  Another TSB.

 

I took my Edge in again for service Wednesday Jan 7th.  Gave the service manager a copy of the issues and the letter from Customer Care.

 

Buck and jerk was the main issue.  I also asked to check why the tach bounces on each shift and the sensitive accelerator.  On Friday I received a call stating the tech believed it could be a torque converter problem. Waiting to hear from Ford.  I also received a call from Customer Care.  Stated the same. 

 

Curious why the TSB wasn't mentioned since it's dated 4 November 2021.  Not that I trust the TSB to correct the problem.  We've all been down that road many times before.

 

Will update once I know more.

 

Just re-read the TSB.  "This bulletin supersedes 21-2081.  Reason for update. Concern Carrover to New Model".  Not, we didn't fix the problem with all the other TSB's or replace the poorly designed transmission.  It's only because the new model owners are now complaining.

Edited January 11, 2022 by Toby99

[rafeeki]

Thank you gents for your in depth investigation into our Buck & Jerk issue.

In order to explain the issue to my service guy at the dealership I wanted to be able to describe it clearly. So As I am in the Chilly Chicago area I thought I needed to determine under what conditions it starts bucking. Here is what I found out.

1. Temps in high 20's

2. Had to drive it for about 20 mins before it exhibited the bucking/jerking  performance. Apparently had to warm up.

3. It was mostly obvious while driving around a shopping area parking lot with a lot of stop signs..

Next week im scheduled to take it in.

 

Will advise when I have something to contribute. Again thank you for posting here.

Rafeek

Edited January 12, 2022 by rafeeki

[MNTBrew]

On 12/30/2021 at 10:20 PM, Toby99 said:

 

I  noticed that you said the dealership reset your PCM, does that mean they simply cleared the shift adapts or did they actually reprogram the PCM to the most current version? I don't usually go by what a dealership says because I have come across far too many situations where a dealership says there is not an issue and yet there is a tsb that addresses the problem word for word or they just "reset" or clear the PCM memory. As far as the tsb being updated to include new model years, that happens all the time because software glitches can occur regardless of how up to date the software is. Personal computers and phones have updates all the time. Another example is the ZF nine speed that Honda has used since 2015. Just last year Honda released another software update for MDX and TLX models spanning from 2015  to 2020 that had to do with hard shifting. Regards, Jason

Edited January 14, 2022 by MNTBrew

[rafeeki]

19 minutes ago, MNTBrew said:

I  noticed that you said the dealership reset your PCM, does that mean they simply cleared the shift adapts or did they actually reprogram the PCM to the most current version? I don't usually go by what a dealership says because I have come across far too many situations where a dealership says there is not an issue and yet there is a tsb that addresses the problem word for word or they just "reset" or clear the PCM memory. As far as the tsb being updated to include new model years, that happens all the time because software glitches can occur regardless of how up to date the software is. Personal computers and phones have updates all the time. Another example is the ZF nine speed that Honda has used since 2015. Just last year Honda released another software update for MDX and TLX models spanning from 2015  to 2020 that had to do with hard shifting. Regards, Jason

Jason

No, I didnt take it in yet. Pl see my entry above yours.

[MNTBrew]

2 hours ago, rafeeki said:

Jason

No, I didnt take it in yet. Pl see my entry above yours.

Sorry for the confusion but I quoted Toby99 and the question was mainly directed towards him but please keep us up to date when you hear back from the dealership.

[Toby99]

12 hours ago, MNTBrew said:

 

I  noticed that you said the dealership reset your PCM, does that mean they simply cleared the shift adapts or did they actually reprogram the PCM to the most current version?  I have no idea what they claim they did to the vehicle.  I'm just quoting what is written on the service ticket.  Whatever was done, does not and has not corrected the problem.   I don't usually go by what a dealership says because I have come across far too many situations where a dealership says there is not an issue and yet there is a tsb that addresses the problem word for word or they just "reset" or clear the PCM memory.  As far as the tsb being updated to include new model years, that happens all the time because software glitches can occur regardless of how up to date the software is.  Yes, true, but that's not how the TSB description was written.  What difference does "new model" make if the new Edge is still using the 2019 version transmission? I know it affects the 8F35 transmission, period, no matter what year vehicle it's in so why mention "Carry over to new model".  The new TSB is because the problem is still not fixed.  And in my situation, three full years and one month.  Vehicle is still sitting at the service department for now eight business days and has not been looked at yet.  Personal computers and phones have updates all the time. Another example is the ZF nine speed that Honda has used since 2015. Just last year Honda released another software update for MDX and TLX models spanning from 2015  to 2020 that had to do with hard shifting. Regards, Jason

[SC_ST]

On 1/14/2022 at 10:55 PM, Toby99 said:

I  noticed that you said the dealership reset your PCM, does that mean they simply cleared the shift adapts or did they actually reprogram the PCM to the most current version?  I have no idea what they claim they did to the vehicle.  I'm just quoting what is written on the service ticket.  Whatever was done, does not and has not corrected the problem.   I don't usually go by what a dealership says because I have come across far too many situations where a dealership says there is not an issue and yet there is a tsb that addresses the problem word for word or they just "reset" or clear the PCM memory.  As far as the tsb being updated to include new model years, that happens all the time because software glitches can occur regardless of how up to date the software is.  Yes, true, but that's not how the TSB description was written.  What difference does "new model" make if the new Edge is still using the 2019 version transmission? I know it affects the 8F35 transmission, period, no matter what year vehicle it's in so why mention "Carry over to new model".  The new TSB is because the problem is still not fixed.  And in my situation, three full years and one month.  Vehicle is still sitting at the service department for now eight business days and has not been looked at yet.  Personal computers and phones have updates all the time. Another example is the ZF nine speed that Honda has used since 2015. Just last year Honda released another software update for MDX and TLX models spanning from 2015  to 2020 that had to do with hard shifting. Regards, Jason

9 speed ZT trans in Honda did not only have a software update, but other internal updates. The fluid change for that trans is very expensive. There is a reason why I bought a 2019 Pilot EXL with the 6 speed. 

[rafeeki]

On 1/12/2022 at 4:03 PM, rafeeki said:

Thank you gents for your in depth investigation into our Buck & Jerk issue.

In order to explain the issue to my service guy at the dealership I wanted to be able to describe it clearly. So As I am in the Chilly Chicago area I thought I needed to determine under what conditions it starts bucking. Here is what I found out.

1. Temps in high 20's

2. Had to drive it for about 20 mins before it exhibited the bucking/jerking  performance. Apparently had to warm up.

3. It was mostly obvious while driving around a shopping area parking lot with a lot of stop signs..

Next week im scheduled to take it in.

 

Will advise when I have something to contribute. Again thank you for posting here.

Rafeek

Took my Edge in today. The wording of my complaint was "Transmission is jerking when slowing to a stop"

They performed according to TSB-19-2331 which is basically reprogramed PCM and performed adoptive learning drive cycle.

So far after driving 5 miles its performing like a charm better than my wives' new hybrid Venza and quieter.

I'm keeping this vehicle until Ford comes up with an EV Edge or similar. 

 

Thank you all for your contributing to this "Jerky" cause.

[Breez]

I had tech hook up a copilot, according to him , it didn't give him any info, although the vehicle did malfunction, we had a total of eight recordings. My wife wants to get rid of it. I think we might.

[IcyFridge]

Mine still has the shudder and jerking. I’ve noticed it when temps are warming but the engine is still cold. 
 
cruising at 40mph or 65mph - the shudder is bad. It’s like driving headfirst into a really strong sharp wind gust, but in a rapid succession. 
 
sometimes cruising at speed, when releasing the accelerator or pressing it slightly to maintain speed, the transmission “shifts” with a small clunk that feels like someone sat down forcefully in the trunk. 
 
26400 miles and I’m using 93 octane with the Livernois Tune. Without the tune, the problems are even worse. Might be time to do a re-learn process I guess.