Poor trans shifting theory investigation

[Fingernip]

Trying to look into a suspicion I have with some of the issues I have noticed with the new ST 8 speed. I have always ran 87 octane until just the other day. I happened to have quite a bit of stop and shop points and nearly maxed out my discount so I decided to fill with 89. I noticed slightly higher boost as expected but also the shutter/bounce effect in the 2/3 shift seems to be greatly reduced. I am wondering if people are experiencing most of the problems when running lower octane gas. Possibly an issue with shift logic and torque targets. Please report what octane you are using ONLY if you are feeling clumsy bucking shifts. 

Edited March 18, 2019 by Fingernip

[Sage]

I experience it and only have used 93.  I have a tune now and that helped with the trans shifting.

 

 

Edited March 19, 2019 by Sage

[akirby]

I've seen this reported on one or two other Ford vehicles (can't remember the details) where running higher octane yielded better shifts/less or no problems.   Not enough to be a pattern but enough to probably not be a coincidence.

[Fingernip]

19 minutes ago, akirby said:

I've seen this reported on one or two other Ford vehicles (can't remember the details) where running higher octane yielded better shifts/less or no problems.   Not enough to be a pattern but enough to probably not be a coincidence.

This is interesting. My 2011 did it a as well and always used 87. Unfortunately never ran mid or high octane on that vehicle so I don't know if it would have made a difference. 

[jamie1073]

I have had it with both 87 and 93. 

[Livernois Motorsports]

Honestly I don't think it is in octane usage. The only time you see issues with shifting is usually traction issues or on the taurus sho we actually noticed over filling the trans by a pint of fluid actually fixed the non shift issue. To verify it is not traction make sure you have traction control off and see if it persists. Or like sage said you can get a performance tune and that usually help on dialing in the trans. 

[jamie1073]

2 hours ago, Livernois Motorsports said:

Honestly I don't think it is in octane usage. The only time you see issues with shifting is usually traction issues or on the taurus sho we actually noticed over filling the trans by a pint of fluid actually fixed the non shift issue. To verify it is not traction make sure you have traction control off and see if it persists. Or like sage said you can get a performance tune and that usually help on dialing in the trans. 

 

I have traction control off for every drive.  Sometimes I turn the Advance Track off totally in case the rear wants to kick out since we have a bit of sand on the ground still.  Still does it and not because the system is trying to activate to stop the slippage sideways since I am going straight at the time. 

[Fingernip]

Definitely unaffected by traction control. It only does the bucking shift under light throttle also. Feels like a standard if you shift and let the engine rpm hang too high. It will usually buck 3-5 times before smoothing out. 

[jamie1073]

Mine sometimes just bucks on moderate accel and also has no idea of what to do when you accelerate quickly and then let off because you have reached the speed you wanted to be at.  It seems to just thijnk you are going to keep going or slam on the brakes of something.  Like it has no clue what is next so it then shifts after hanging the revs and sometimes I need to put my foot back on the gas just to let it know I am at my cruising speed.  Then they are the lack of downshifts when say turning onto a new road while moving still.  Turn and hit the gas and it stays in gear and does not downshift, so you are flooring it and the revs are at 2500-3000 RPM and the engine slowly picking up the pace but should have downshifted.  It is supposed to be sporty for crying out loud.  There should be no need to bog the engine down just because it is a TT and can boost through.  The transmission in my mom's MKC 2.3T is better at being performancy and proper shifting.  I was just driving along today going from 40-45 and the trans stuttered like it wanted to shift somewhere.

 

[Sage]

This is what I was told by a dealer, not saying it is accurate or not.  The dealer stated Ford is aware of everything that has been stated in this thread and is working on it. What does that mean, I have no idea.  I picture someone stating we need to have a donut get together, but we need a subject to justify the company paying for the donuts, let call the meeting “Transmission enhancements for 2021”.  

 

Now, I like Ford’s, always have, but I also want to keep a sense of humor about how corporate gets things done sometimes.  

[bobyellow]

I complained. My PCM was updated after two visits. Seems much better now.

[Jimmyw86]

I put it into paddle shift mode and it will always go from 1st gear straight to 3rd when I shift or I let it automatically shift for me. I feel like it does that with other gears as well. I'll have hard clunking in the mornings when I put it in reverse but I'm not too worried about that. 

[TomCinMI]

On 3/19/2019 at 6:56 PM, bobyellow said:

I complained. My PCM was updated after two visits. Seems much better now.

 

A PCM is hardware, correct, not software? So when you say it was updated, you mean it was replaced--or just the software which runs it was updated? Is that the transmission fix which Ford has prescribed? Now, nearly a week later, does shifting still seem much better?

Edited March 26, 2019 by TomCinMI

[TomCinMI]

Full disclosure: In starting this thread, fingernip requested, "Please report what octane you are using ONLY if you are feeling clumsy bucking shifts." That caveat comes after the octane survey, which is above the initial post; I answered that I've been using 87 octane, although I don't perceive my shifting to generally be so clumsy or bucking as others have. Shifts seem fairly seamless when the trans is warm. So, taking away my "vote", only four folks have answered the survey.

[bobyellow]

5 hours ago, TomCinMI said:

 

A PCM is hardware, correct, not software? So when you say it was updated, you mean it was replaced--or just the software which runs it was updated? Is that the transmission fix which Ford has prescribed? Now, nearly a week later, does shifting still seem much better?

 

Only reporting what is on the Dealer Invoice

"Checked Linkage and Shifter. Found Update for PCM during Quick test. Updated the PCM and Road test vehicle."

 

It was 'understood' that the software was updated. There was a thread on the possible TSB as that was first stated on the phone by the service desk. Once 'the software' update was completed, there was a new Strategy Code (broke FORScan and LMS tune; until those were updated).

[omar302]

5 hours ago, TomCinMI said:

 

A PCM is hardware, correct, not software? So when you say it was updated, you mean it was replaced--or just the software which runs it was updated? 

 

PCM is the "Powertrain Control Module", basically the computer controlling the Engine & Transmission which has a software, this software is what is updated (and tuned in aftermarket tuners) just like how phones' software is updated. Reading all these issues with the ST's 8-speed, it seems the concern is with the 2-3 shift, also noteworthy is that the 2nd gear is one of the two added gears compared to the previous transmission in the Sport. The second added gear is the 8th, a 2nd overdrive ratio. So the issue could be as simple as software related for how it deals with the extra ratios (compared to the old 6-speed unit) or hardware with the new components they added to convert the 6-speed to a 8-speed.

 

[TomCinMI]

4 hours ago, bobyellow said:

 

Only reporting what is on the Dealer Invoice

"Checked Linkage and Shifter. Found Update for PCM during Quick test. Updated the PCM and Road test vehicle."

 

It was 'understood' that the software was updated. There was a thread on the possible TSB as that was first stated on the phone by the service desk. Once 'the software' update was completed, there was a new Strategy Code (broke FORScan and LMS tune; until those were updated).

 

Thank you. If what you describe is Ford's bottom-line fix, sounds like they sure should have letters in the mail to each of us about now. I guess you mean that "there was a thread on the possible TSB" ... on this forum.(?) I don't know what is a "possible" TSB; isn't there either a TSB or not, rather than "possible"? Seems as though others here have mentioned LMS in regard to ST's 8-speed. I could Google "LMS", but isn't it an aftermarket mod (which I wouldn't want to be doing to a vehicle under warranty)? Do you happen to be familiar with "FORScan"? And how about my question, please, of whether you still believe you're experiencing an improvement in shifting?

[akirby]

1 hour ago, TomCinMI said:

 

Thank you. If what you describe is Ford's bottom-line fix, sounds like they sure should have letters in the mail to each of us about now. I guess you mean that "there was a thread on the possible TSB" ... on this forum.(?) I don't know what is a "possible" TSB; isn't there either a TSB or not, rather than "possible"? Seems as though others here have mentioned LMS in regard to ST's 8-speed. I could Google "LMS", but isn't it an aftermarket mod (which I wouldn't want to be doing to a vehicle under warranty)? Do you happen to be familiar with "FORScan"? And how about my question, please, of whether you still believe you're experiencing an improvement in shifting?

 

The way TSBs work is that they describe a fix for common problems to help the technicians.  You don’t need a letter to tell you there is a TSB because they’re only going to update the software if you complain about it.   When you take it to the dealer and describe the shifting problems they’ll see there is a TSB and apply the software updates.

[bobyellow]

2 hours ago, TomCinMI said:

 

Thank you. If what you describe is Ford's bottom-line fix, sounds like they sure should have letters in the mail to each of us about now. I guess you mean that "there was a thread on the possible TSB" ... on this forum.(?) I don't know what is a "possible" TSB; isn't there either a TSB or not, rather than "possible"? Seems as though others here have mentioned LMS in regard to ST's 8-speed. I could Google "LMS", but isn't it an aftermarket mod (which I wouldn't want to be doing to a vehicle under warranty)? Do you happen to be familiar with "FORScan"? And how about my question, please, of whether you still believe you're experiencing an improvement in shifting?

 

'Possible' was me talking with the service rep who said "A TSB was issued". He didn't know jack. My VIN was searched and no such TSB was found. Many forum ST owners were hoping for one.

 

LMS - yes, a mod/tune. But the Library of Congress has held up the 'Right' to alter software as long as the modification doesn't break a vehicle (and you don't sell the software), a manufacturer can't hold that against warranty. A tune most likely resets the transmission 'learning' as they warn about hard shifting for a bit. I use it to get better gas mileage. And shifting is fine.

 

FORScan - yes, use it to activate more software that FORD USA has deemed not allowed. Like Open/Close front windows from a key fob (useful when I walk away and need to close; or hot day and want to open to cool).This software can 'break' things in terms of 'Crap, my lights don't work'... but then you just change back to AsBuilt settings (or a saved file). 

 

Edited March 26, 2019 by bobyellow
Changed 'Courts' to 'Library of Congress'

[akirby]

On 3/25/2019 at 12:55 PM, Jimmyw86 said:

I put it into paddle shift mode and it will always go from 1st gear straight to 3rd when I shift or I let it automatically shift for me. I feel like it does that with other gears as well. I'll have hard clunking in the mornings when I put it in reverse but I'm not too worried about that. 

 

You put it into S, then manually select a gear to put it into manual mode.  Then when you stop and start again and you're in 1st gear, you hit the paddle and it upshifts to 3rd?

 

If that's true then what may be happening is that when you go to S mode it reverts to the 6F55's original 6 speeds (locking out 2nd and 8th).   Which actually is starting to make sense.

[jamie1073]

4 hours ago, akirby said:

 

The way TSBs work is that they describe a fix for common problems to help the technicians.  You don’t need a letter to tell you there is a TSB because they’re only going to update the software if you complain about it.   When you take it to the dealer and describe the shifting problems they’ll see there is a TSB and apply the software updates.

 

Yeah that is the problem with the TSB, you have to tell the service people a bunch of stuff to get them to road test, troubleshoot, have the problem crop up for them then they update.  I wish you could just say to them please update to the latest software for me. 

[TomCinMI]

3 hours ago, bobyellow said:

 

"'Possible' was me talking with the service rep who said "A TSB was issued". He didn't know jack. My VIN was searched and no such TSB was found. Many forum ST owners were hoping for one."

 

Then how did he know to apply an update, inc. what update? ... Wait. Come to think of it, seems that you earlier said a scan indicated an update being available, apparently even in the absence of an associated TSB.

 

"LMS - yes, a mod/tune. But the Library of Congress has held up the 'Right' to alter software as long as the modification doesn't break a vehicle (and you don't sell the software), a manufacturer can't hold that against warranty. A tune most likely resets the transmission 'learning' as they warn about hard shifting for a bit. I use it to get better gas mileage. And shifting is fine."

 

Sure glad to hear that "shifting is fine", but sounds like the "waters are muddied" somewhat, as far as figuring out what has actually benefited you, if you had not only a PCM update but also a LMS tune, which was updated, too. The picture seems complicated by having effectively two tunes.

 

"FORScan - yes, use it to activate more software that FORD USA has deemed not allowed. Like Open/Close front windows from a key fob (useful when I walk away and need to close; or hot day and want to open to cool).This software can 'break' things in terms of 'Crap, my lights don't work'... but then you just change back to AsBuilt settings (or a saved file)."

 

There are already global window-open/close (& sunroof vent) functions via the fob.

 

 

[TomCinMI]

19 minutes ago, jamie1073 said:

 

Yeah that is the problem with the TSB, you have to tell the service people a bunch of stuff to get them to road test, troubleshoot, have the problem crop up for them then they update.  I wish you could just say to them please update to the latest software for me. 

 

Well, if there's a TSB per se, and, therefore, prior road-testing of vehicles resulted in the development of the associated software/hardware update, further road-testing would be redundant as hell, certainly if the issue was found to be endemic to the model/trim; either way, even if manufacturers typically try to save update costs by not sending out a letter to all owners about a TSB, Ford had better get Public Relations working overtime on knocking down the bad press that's coming from negative reviews of the Edge ST, by effectively putting out word that the fix is in (if it is, when it is).

Edited March 26, 2019 by TomCinMI

[jamie1073]

2 hours ago, TomCinMI said:

 

Well, if there's a TSB per se, and, therefore, prior road-testing of vehicles resulted in the development of the associated software/hardware update, further road-testing would be redundant as hell, certainly if the issue was found to be endemic to the model/trim; either way, even if manufacturers typically try to save update costs by not sending out a letter to all owners about a TSB, Ford had better get Public Relations working overtime on knocking down the bad press that's coming from negative reviews of the Edge ST, by effectively putting out word that the fix is in (if it is, when it is).

 

Yes but sometimes when it is available you can't just ask for it.  You have to go through the steps that your trans is shifting bad and yada yada and some dealers just don't say 'ok we will update it'  Mine may because my dad works there and they know the family.  But I have seen in the past with other vehicles that basically would have to give the the TSB number and read the problems off it like a script.  Lol.

 

 

[Fingernip]

Brought my car in this morning and the dealer just called me to say they have reproduced my concern and have a solenoid replacement repair recommended by the ford dealer service forum community. They are ordering the parts now and will release the car to me as we wait for the parts to arrive. They mentioned that it is a wide spread problem that seems to effect a large portion of this model and they have no word if Ford is planning to release a TSB or not. I asked if they can disclose all of there findings and investigation so I can share it here and they agreed.