So Is All The Youtube Videos True

[TomCinMI]

11 minutes ago, MaX83_ZA said:

I am not getting involved in the debate (dont worry Akirby), I still love my Sport and have no plans on trading. Savagegeese did a really good review on the Edge and explains what the engineers did to get the 8 speed and why it is not working. It seems like Ford marketing department said, we need an 8 speed ASAP and Ford threw one together over the weekend. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qup6s2caqRQ

 

Sounds like you are getting involved in the debate. I linked that Savagegeese video in my first comment to this thread, as one of the "con" (vs. "pro") reviews; why are you so sure that the video's claims, about how the transmission came to be, are accurate? So many of those who commented directly on the video came off as though, "Wow, Savagegeese. May as well have come from God Himself!" There are all kinds of agendas at play, let alone sloppiness, in the making of YouTube content.

[akirby]

9 minutes ago, TomCinMI said:

 

No, I didn't misunderstand. And you didn't get to my questions:  "Concerning uphill/downhill, do you contend that the ST's paddle-shifting in "S" isn't up to those situations? Because if you think that, shouldn't there be just about zero Edges sold in Colorado (not just ST's, since all Edges have paddles)?"

 

I already answered that - manually shifting in S mode is perfectly fine.  I went further to try and explain when manually shifting is a big help.  So yes I think being able to manually shift any automatic transmission under certain circumstances is a good feature regardless of how well the transmission actually performs.   I tried to explain that the problems are not caused by having paddles - the problems are caused by the transmission itself being slow to shift.  Has nothing to do with paddles.

 

YOU said ALL paddle shifters are a joke and I was just trying to say that there are some paddle shifted transmissions that are superb in other (more expensive) vehicles.  That comment had nothing to do with the Edge.

 

 

[MaX83_ZA]

18 minutes ago, TomCinMI said:

So many of those who commented directly on the video came off as though, "Wow, Savagegeese. May as well have come from God Himself!" There are all kinds of agendas at play, let alone sloppiness, in the making of YouTube content.

 

Did you watch that video? Did the video or the presenter at any point in time come across as "sloppy"? He is the first reviewer that actually went the extra mile to research the transmission. That is all... I dont care much for his opinion bits (i.e. his song around black plastic is getting old and he complains about fake engine sound all the time) but his technical reviews are some of the best out there. That, and his driving impressions. He spends a lot of time on the track; he doesnt just talk about how a car should drive, he understands the essence and physics behind it. 

[akirby]

4 minutes ago, MaX83_ZA said:

 

Did you watch that video? Did the video or the presenter at any point in time come across as "sloppy"? He is the first reviewer that actually went the extra mile to research the transmission. That is all... I dont care much for his opinion bits (i.e. his song around black plastic is getting old and he complains about fake engine sound all the time) but his technical reviews are some of the best out there. That, and his driving impressions. He spends a lot of time on the track; he doesnt just talk about how a car should drive, he understands the essence and physics behind it. 

 

Nobody has ever questioned the transmission shortcomings.

 

I believe what happened is that they were planning to use the new 8 speed but ran into problems and decided that only easy solution was to updated the 6F55 to a 8 spd and they just ran out of time to tune and debug it properly.

The bigger question  is whether that can be fixed with software or not.  Hopefully most of it can be.

[Fingernip]

2 minutes ago, akirby said:

 

Nobody has ever questioned the transmission shortcomings.

 

I believe what happened is that they were planning to use the new 8 speed but ran into problems and decided that only easy solution was to updated the 6F55 to a 8 spd and they just ran out of time to tune and debug it properly.

The bigger question  is whether that can be fixed with software or not.  Hopefully most of it can be.

I see several posts about getting the PCM flashed and the issues being mostly resolved. I'm wondering if its going back into learn mode or they actually changed something. Im about to make a service appointment to see what comes of it. 

[akirby]

46 minutes ago, Fingernip said:

I see several posts about getting the PCM flashed and the issues being mostly resolved. I'm wondering if its going back into learn mode or they actually changed something. Im about to make a service appointment to see what comes of it. 

 

I know a former Ford tranny engineer who explained the adaptive learning.   There is a shift table that gives the pressure required for each shift based on rpm and throttle position.   This is set at the factory.  Every time the transmission performs a shift it compares the actual shift time to the defined shift time and adjusts the pressure as necessary to maintain the same shift time over the life of the transmission as parts wear, etc.   When you clear out or reset the shift tables it goes back to factory default settings.

 

I've had at least one vehicle where resetting to factory defaults worked better.  Never figured out why but it wasn't just me, so that's entirely plausible.  Pretty easy to test, too.

[jamie1073]

4 hours ago, akirby said:

 

Nobody has ever questioned the transmission shortcomings.

 

I believe what happened is that they were planning to use the new 8 speed but ran into problems and decided that only easy solution was to updated the 6F55 to a 8 spd and they just ran out of time to tune and debug it properly.

The bigger question  is whether that can be fixed with software or not.  Hopefully most of it can be.

 

My big question is are they just going to reprogram them when they find a solution or am I going to have to take it in several times and list my complaints and then have them try to reproduce them and then eventually after several visits finally just update the software.  That would be tiresome. 

[akirby]

With something like that all you would have to do is complain about the shifting and mention the TSB # and they should reprogram it no questions asked.

[TomCinMI]

On 3/24/2019 at 8:07 PM, Nick Halstead said:

thanks for being honest man, they might dislike you around these parts for honesty.

I thanked him for what seems to be his honest, thoughtful take, before reading that remark from you. No disliking honesty, but sounds like maybe someone ought to come down off that cross, because somebody else might need the wood.

[TomCinMI]

On 3/24/2019 at 11:10 AM, akirby said:

 

"But it seems that most of the gripes here are based on the Sport and that the ST isn’t a big upgrade over the previous Sport.  What if the Sport never existed?  Instead of being disappointed in the ST why not be surprised at just how good the Sport was even though it wasn’t tuned by Ford Performance?  Maybe there just wasn’t much to improve on over the Sport?"

 

Interesting point. That is insightful.

[TomCinMI]

23 hours ago, akirby said:

I wouldn’t consider the engine, transmission, suspension and some body parts to be only 5% different.

 

Correct, + occurs to me that, last I recall, at least around c. 2015, seems like Edge Sports weren't rated to tow; not performance related, but that's sure significant in my state. Extra cooling comes with both the ST & tow packages.

Edited March 26, 2019 by TomCinMI

[TomCinMI]

7 hours ago, akirby said:

 

I already answered that - manually shifting in S mode is perfectly fine.  I went further to try and explain when manually shifting is a big help.  So yes I think being able to manually shift any automatic transmission under certain circumstances is a good feature regardless of how well the transmission actually performs.   I tried to explain that the problems are not caused by having paddles - the problems are caused by the transmission itself being slow to shift.  Has nothing to do with paddles.

 

YOU said ALL paddle shifters are a joke and I was just trying to say that there are some paddle shifted transmissions that are superb in other (more expensive) vehicles.  That comment had nothing to do with the Edge.

 

 

 

I'm not gonna resurrect the entire conversation, and the caveats/distinctions which each of us have made, but you sure did seem to imply that the Edge ST's paddle shifting (yes, naturally with its transmission) is so poor that one may as well forget tackling a mountain with it; otherwise--as I indicated--I understood what you were saying the first time. And, of course, "other (more expensive) vehicles" speaks to price point, on which ST is very well placed.

Edited March 26, 2019 by TomCinMI

[TomCinMI]

7 hours ago, MaX83_ZA said:

 

Did you watch that video? Did the video or the presenter at any point in time come across as "sloppy"? He is the first reviewer that actually went the extra mile to research the transmission. That is all... I dont care much for his opinion bits (i.e. his song around black plastic is getting old and he complains about fake engine sound all the time) but his technical reviews are some of the best out there. That, and his driving impressions. He spends a lot of time on the track; he doesnt just talk about how a car should drive, he understands the essence and physics behind it. 

 

I sure didn't comment on the video without having watched it. My point was, and is: Why are you so confident that his description of the transmission's history is accurate? He didn't cite his source. If your answer is "faith", well, OK, then faith.

[erikrichard]

On 3/24/2019 at 12:31 PM, TomCinMI said:

 

Wow, that's a snarky, even nasty comment. And as far as your "I sincerely doubt my 2010 Edge is any less safe than your 2019 Edge", if I were borderline snarky I'd reply "LOL", but I'll just state the obvious: You're objectively wrong on that. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, maybe you haven't studied up. The better than average depreciation on the 2019 Edge ST (for sure in Michigan), even with unfair hits against it, is well worth the value in exceptional safety--yes, exceptional.

 

Fall for marketing much? If a driver is paying attention there is no difference in accident survival between a new Edge and a 2010 Edge. If you are lazy/inattentive then maybe the features of the new Edge is safer.

Edited March 26, 2019 by erikrichard

[Nick Halstead]

1 hour ago, TomCinMI said:

I thanked him for what seems to be his honest, thoughtful take, before reading that remark from you. No disliking honesty, but sounds like maybe someone ought to come down off that cross, because somebody else might need the wood.

that's assuming the person supposedly on that cross ever existed

 

49 minutes ago, TomCinMI said:

 

Correct, + occurs to me that, last I recall, at least around c. 2015, seems like Edge Sports weren't rated to tow; not performance related, but that's sure significant in my state. Extra cooling comes with both the ST & tow packages.

considering that part of the convo was comparing what was and wasn't available on a 2019 Titanium and a 2019 Edge ST, but I like how you drug the Sport into it.

[TomCinMI]

11 minutes ago, erikrichard said:

 

Fall for marketing much? If a driver is paying attention there is no difference in accident survival between a new Edge and a 2010 Edge. If you are lazy/inattentive then maybe the features of the new Edge is safer.

 

Keep telling yourself that; won't make it true. About just one of the lesser-mentioned features, post-collision braking: If one is involved in a wreck that's none of his/her fault, there's always the potential of ricocheting off into another lane of traffic--very possibly oncoming traffic--unless post-collision braking kicks in, so the vehicle automatically brakes upon first impact; that's one of countless scenarios which have nothing to do with being "lazy/inattentive".

[TomCinMI]

24 minutes ago, Nick Halstead said:

"that's assuming the person supposedly on that cross ever existed"

The stuff about "they might dislike you around these parts for honesty" came across the way it came across, and it sure doesn't apply to me. I doubt that anyone here has a problem with plain honesty.

 

"considering that part of the convo was comparing what was and wasn't available on a 2019 Titanium and a 2019 Edge ST, but I like how you drug the Sport into it."

 

You've made much of the discussion in relation to the Sport. And thank you.

 

[MaX83_ZA]

19 hours ago, akirby said:

I believe what happened is that they were planning to use the new 8 speed but ran into problems and decided that only easy solution was to updated the 6F55 to a 8 spd and they just ran out of time to tune and debug it properly.

The bigger question  is whether that can be fixed with software or not.  Hopefully most of it can be.

 

The 1 and 3 gear ratio in the ST box is exactly the same as the 1 and 2 ratio on the Sport. The way the 2.7 makes power (have a look at the dyno graph, shorter shifts at the top will actually result in the car using less torque and not much extra HP), it does not need the extra shift between 1 and 2. Even if they get it to shift properly/smoothly, it is still a wasted shift. If the ST was a peaky aspirated motor (like the Mustang GT) that made peak power at 7000+ rpm, and you wanted to keep it on the boil under acceleration, then the extra shifts makes sense.  That is why I said, Ford marketing gave Ford performance a list of requirements that would allow them to sell cars and given their time constraints, this is the best they could do.

 

If you read reviews of the new Focus ST, you start to understand what the badge complaints are about on the Edge ST. The same team that slapped a ration between a 1 and 2 shift on a torque heavy 2.7 twin turbo, built, once again, one of the best handling hot hatches on the road, with a proper double clutch gearbox and even a anti-lag system!!! (edit: wasnt going to talk ST badge again, sorry)

[omar302]

49 minutes ago, MaX83_ZA said:

The 1 and 3 gear ratio in the ST box is exactly the same as the 1 and 2 ratio on the Sport. The way the 2.7 makes power (have a look at the dyno graph, shorter shifts at the top will actually result in the car using less torque and not much extra HP), it does not need the extra shift between 1 and 2.

 

What surprised more is that on my 2016 Sport, the 1-2-3 shift happens just below 60 mph, the ST has a shorter final drive, so the 1-2-3-4 sooner than the Sport's 1-2-3, hence no wonder it has a slow 0-60 time with all those shifts. 

[akirby]

More shifts are ok if they’re super quick like the mustang/f150 10 speed.    But when they’re slow it just compounds the issue.

[jamie1073]

4 hours ago, akirby said:

More shifts are ok if they’re super quick like the mustang/f150 10 speed.    But when they’re slow it just compounds the issue.

 

Hopefully a software update could help that.  I assume speed is software controlled via changing pressures. Maybe I am wrong.  

[akirby]

3 minutes ago, jamie1073 said:

 

Hopefully a software update could help that.  I assume speed is software controlled via changing pressures. Maybe I am wrong.  

 

To a point but it’s also dependent on how quickly the clutches can be engaged or disengaged and how many have to be coordinated for each shift.

[TomCinMI]

On 3/25/2019 at 3:27 PM, Fingernip said:

I see several posts about getting the PCM flashed and the issues being mostly resolved. I'm wondering if its going back into learn mode or they actually changed something. Im about to make a service appointment to see what comes of it. 

 

We'll much look forward to an update from you after that.

[TomCinMI]

5 hours ago, MaX83_ZA said:

 

If you read reviews of the new Focus ST, you start to understand what the badge complaints are about on the Edge ST. The same team that slapped a ration between a 1 and 2 shift on a torque heavy 2.7 twin turbo, built, once again, one of the best handling hot hatches on the road, with a proper double clutch gearbox and even a anti-lag system!!! (edit: wasnt going to talk ST badge again, sorry)

 

Thank you. Focus & Edge, very different vehicles.

[TomCinMI]

4 hours ago, omar302 said:

 

What surprised more is that on my 2016 Sport, the 1-2-3 shift happens just below 60 mph, the ST has a shorter final drive, so the 1-2-3-4 sooner than the Sport's 1-2-3, hence no wonder it has a slow 0-60 time with all those shifts. 

 

How do you figure that 6 seconds to 60 is slow, let alone it being off by about 0.1 sec compared to the Sport? Never mind. Rhetorical question.