Big time swirls in black paint ?

[John Rom]

 In January I picked up a nice 08 MKX in black. Very nice shape with 62,000 miles on her. The paint is in good condition but it looks like it was run though an automatic car wash about a million times. It's covered in swirl marks from stem to stern. My plan to attack this is a good washing followed by Mothers clay bar. The next steps is by hand as I don't have a buffer and I'd be afraid to use one. Meigures Ultimate Compound or Swirl X 2.0 depending on which one works faster. I'm pretty sure the compound would be faster/easier. then a couple of coats of Meigures Carnaba Paste Wax to protect it, plus no automatic car washes.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        

 

is there a better way to do this? Any tips are appreciated.

[1004ron]

My black 2017 Sport is the same after weekly car washes.

 

I tried the contactless car washes, but the type of dirt on my car isn't removed by these, whereas it does work with my wife's car, so worth trying them.

 

A good wax helps to some degree, but didn't seem to do much for mine.

 

I would not use compound, unless you plan on following up with a polishing paste.

[ben senise]

spinning buffers can wreck the paint in the wrong hands. however, an random orbital buffer is very safe. i bought the porter cable one and a few meguiar's pads with meguiar's polishing compound and wax and i'm very happy with the results.

if you only do it once, then maybe you can do it by hand but it will be a long process. i highly recommend the orbital buffer.

[Nick Halstead]

you are not going to accomplish anything by hand, might even make it worse. It really goes back to how much you want to spend. Do you want to make an initial investment on yourself and do your own vehicles or would you rather pay someone almost the same amount to do it once and then maintain it yourself cause you don't have time. This F150 was pretty bad.


Got it down to this.



and left like this, $600. later

same with this F150

 

to this



and my own Tuxedo Black Edge Sport, I'd watch in HD

and this is small sample of how much, I personally would spend if I didn't own anything. Granted, I've spent $3,200. on Detialed Image in the last year.
https://www.detailedimage.com/Cart-Saved/725729843/

Edited March 13, 2019 by Nick Halstead

[IWRBB]

Yea, doing it by hand is going to be impossible.  You need a random orbit polisher with a good foam cutting pad and mid/agressive polish to get the swirls out.  Then work you way up to a light cutting pad/polish, then a wax.  I agree you don't need to use "compund" - that's too agressive IMO.

 

If you go by hand, or don't use a heavy enough cutting pad/polish, you'll never get it done.  You can do it yourself, no problem. Just go one panel at a time.  

Edited March 13, 2019 by IWRBB

[John Rom]

I guess I'll price the polisher out and see  what they run. Do you really think the Meigures Ultimate Compound is too aggressive? How about the Swirl X 2.0 Instead of the compound?                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I've never owned a black car before so this problem is new to me.  My wife suggested contacting a few shops to see what they would want to just buff the swirls out and I could do the rest. That may be an option because I can't see paying someone 600 bucks to do the whole thing.

 

I just found a Black and Decker polisher pretty cheap on Amazon. Listed for over fifty bucks but on sale for about thirty. I know the cheaper isn't often too good, but I only have the Lincoln that I'd use it on. Two of my other cars are white, and one is gold so swirl marks aren't a problem on them.

 

Thanks for all the advice.

Edited March 13, 2019 by John Rom
Info added

[Nick Halstead]

45 minutes ago, John Rom said:

I guess I'll price the polisher out and see  what they run. Do you really think the Meigures Ultimate Compound is too aggressive? How about the Swirl X 2.0 Instead of the compound?                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I've never owned a black car before so this problem is new to me.  My wife suggested contacting a few shops to see what they would want to just buff the swirls out and I could do the rest. That may be an option because I can't see paying someone 600 bucks to do the whole thing.

 

I just found a Black and Decker polisher pretty cheap on Amazon. Listed for over fifty bucks but on sale for about thirty. I know the cheaper isn't often too good, but I only have the Lincoln that I'd use it on. Two of my other cars are white, and one is gold so swirl marks aren't a problem on them.

 

Thanks for all the advice.

Nobody on this page can tell you what compound to use without seeing the condition of the paint first. If you call around and a shop blind quotes you, I personally would be concerned with their work. When it comes to DAs, you get what you pay for. The Porter Cable will work for beginners, my father n law has one. I hate it, but I have 3 DAs and all of them were over $350. I wouldn't buy the B&D, the cult following of Autogeek enthusiasts rave about the Harbor Freight DA. As far as compounds, it all depends on your budget, I'd never use Ultimate Compound or Swirl X, but thats me and my preference cause I know they are going to take extra work at my skill level when I know better stuff is on the market. I promise you, your other cars have swirls on them if put up to a light source. I've made a good chunk of money from people who have said, "my paint looks good." Yeah in the shade on a cloudy day. But lets hit it with the swirl finder.

Edited March 13, 2019 by Nick Halstead

[ben senise]

i think spending money on a cheap polisher would be throwing money away. do it right or don't do it at all. do you know anyone with a random orbital that they could lend you?

 

regarding the polishing product, start with a mild one and see how it goes. then if you need to, go more aggressive. small steps starting with the least dangerous or damaging product.

 

i use my porter cable to polish and wax the car in spring and just touch up late summer so i only once a year, maybe twice at the maximum. but if you don't think the investment is worth it and you won't use the machine on a regular basis, then get a pro to do the swirl marks. it's the least hassle and maybe the least expensive solution.

[John Rom]

Thanks for the lively discussion and all the info. I,m sure the the Chrysler and Monte have swirl marks but the lighter colors don't show them. My Fiero doesn't have any (or  very many) because I hand wash it or spray wash it and I had it painted a few years ago. The swirls on the Lincoln can't be seen looking straight at it in the sun or shade, but at an angle in the sun they pop right out.

[John Rom]

I finally got the chance to start on this today. I only did a front fender as a test but I'm please with the way it came out. I started with Mother's clay bar followed by Meguiar's Scratch X in a few deeper scratches. Then a buffing using Maguiar's Ultimate Compound, Swirl X, then Ultimate Polish and gold class carnaba wax. All of this was done by hand and applied with a foam pad. What a difference between the finished fender and the untouched door.

 

Thanks again for all the guidance and and suggestions.

[IWRBB]

Gonna be a lot easier to do it all with a machine, but doing it by hand is a good workout.   Glad you are getting it cleaned up.  

[John Rom]

2 hours ago, IWRBB said:

Gonna be a lot easier to do it all with a machine, but doing it by hand is a good workout.   Glad you are getting it cleaned up.  

I'm retired so I don't have a lot to do this time of year anyway. I've never used a machine so I'm nervous about trying one, And my life's a lot simpler when I'm outside and the wife is inside :). The swirls aren't as bad on mine as some of the  pictures others posted . so far I've done the front fenders, and since the sun came out today I got to compair the finished door to the yet to be done door. Big difference, so I'm pleased with it.

[ben senise]

3 hours ago, John Rom said:

 I've never used a machine so I'm nervous about trying one

 

a random orbital is not at all threatening. it is extremely easy. i would be very reluctant myself to use a rotating buffer.

you'll be satisfied that you did it yourself when you get it done.

[Nick Halstead]

5 hours ago, John Rom said:

I'm retired so I don't have a lot to do this time of year anyway. I've never used a machine so I'm nervous about trying one, And my life's a lot simpler when I'm outside and the wife is inside :). The swirls aren't as bad on mine as some of the  pictures others posted . so far I've done the front fenders, and since the sun came out today I got to compair the finished door to the yet to be done door. Big difference, so I'm pleased with it.

https://www.detailedimage.com/Griots-M56/Random-Orbital-Polisher-P671/25-cord-S2/

that's a good beginner Dual Action Polisher, it's impossible to burn the paint with it. I've sold a few. I'm a tier 3 wholesale seller for Detailed Image, spent $4,100. in the last year, most of it for my own work though.

Edited March 27, 2019 by Nick Halstead

[MaX83_ZA]

On 3/24/2019 at 3:51 PM, John Rom said:

I finally got the chance to start on this today. I only did a front fender as a test but I'm please with the way it came out. I started with Mother's clay bar followed by Meguiar's Scratch X in a few deeper scratches. Then a buffing using Maguiar's Ultimate Compound, Swirl X, then Ultimate Polish and gold class carnaba wax. All of this was done by hand and applied with a foam pad. What a difference between the finished fender and the untouched door.

 

Thanks again for all the guidance and and suggestions.

 

If I remember right, Swirl X has a stronger cut than Megs Ultimate compound. So your sequence should be Swirl X, UC and then Polish. Also note, Megs UC breaks down to polishing crystals if you keep on working the product. You will actually see the product change from a white paste to a more clear color so keep working the UC. If you apply Megs UC right, you can skip the Polish step. Also, if you had a DA polisher, I would bet you will be able to use Megs UC with a decent pad without having to go through a multi stage correction. (hard to give advice without seeing the car) 

 

Pic below is of my Edge after the winter, had some serious swirls, process was: wash, clay, 1 Pass Megs UC with a medium cutting/polish pad, 1 coat of Megs Hybrid Ceramic. The paint isnt 100% perfect but as a daily driver that is 4 years old, the purpose was to clean-up the clear coat and then seal. This is my daily, not a showcar so I value layers of clearcoat over a 100% perfect finish (i reckon finish is about 85% corrected)

 

Edit: Picture below

 

Edited March 27, 2019 by MaX83_ZA

[MaX83_ZA]

[MaX83_ZA]

Quick edit: Seems like you have your sequence right but if you look at the chart in the link below, you are wasting your time by flipping between UC and SwirlX

 

https://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?38239-Let-s-talk-about-quot-Total-Cut-quot

[ben senise]

3 hours ago, MaX83_ZA said:

Quick edit: Seems like you have your sequence right but if you look at the chart in the link below, you are wasting your time by flipping between UC and SwirlX

 

https://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?38239-Let-s-talk-about-quot-Total-Cut-quot

 

excellent article. it is very informative. thanks for posting that. 

[Nick Halstead]

6 hours ago, MaX83_ZA said:

1 coat of Megs Hybrid Ceramic.

 

not a fan of it, horrible durability and like 90% of all OTC products, all hype, to profit off the people who don't know any better.

[MaX83_ZA]

13 hours ago, Nick Halstead said:

not a fan of it, horrible durability and like 90% of all OTC products, all hype, to profit off the people who don't know any better.

 

I only applied it this weekend so cannot comment on durability. What I can comment on, the finish is incredible! I was going to top it off with Fusso King of Gloss to get that deep gloss but HC looks great on its own. The pic above is genuinely 1 coat of HC on a prepped surface. Incredible.

 

Also, it takes no longer to apply than a regular wax (first application) and then to top up you spray and rinse (although I will probably use it as a drying aid and not a spray and rinse). A lot of reviewers complain that it is wasteful, at $14 a bottle, does it matter LOL! I had Adams new Ceramic Spray Coat in my cart and ready to go but after watching a couple of head to head shoot outs between the megs and the Adams, I decided that at the price, I dont mind giving the HC a go even if it only lasts 2 or 3 months. Heck, for that price, I wont mind if it lasts only 1 month. LOL! (Its obviously easy to please me...)

 

My big question is; what is going on my new black Mustang GT this weekend... So far, it seems that the base will be HC, I am just not sure if I will apply something on-top of it. 

[Nick Halstead]

19 minutes ago, MaX83_ZA said:

 

I only applied it this weekend so cannot comment on durability. What I can comment on, the finish is incredible! I was going to top it off with Fusso King of Gloss to get that deep gloss but HC looks great on its own. The pic above is genuinely 1 coat of HC on a prepped surface. Incredible.

 

Also, it takes no longer to apply than a regular wax (first application) and then to top up you spray and rinse (although I will probably use it as a drying aid and not a spray and rinse). A lot of reviewers complain that it is wasteful, at $14 a bottle, does it matter LOL! I had Adams new Ceramic Spray Coat in my cart and ready to go but after watching a couple of head to head shoot outs between the megs and the Adams, I decided that at the price, I dont mind giving the HC a go even if it only lasts 2 or 3 months. Heck, for that price, I wont mind if it lasts only 1 month. LOL! (Its obviously easy to please me...)

 

My big question is; what is going on my new black Mustang GT this weekend... So far, it seems that the base will be HC, I am just not sure if I will apply something on-top of it. 

take a APC and dilute it 3/1 spray on surface, let it dwell for 5 mins then spray off and hybrid ceramic wax will basically be gone. A dedicated SIO2 spray sealant like Carpro Reload or Gyeon Cure is a better option. You can literally get the same look from a bottle of windex (this test has been done also) as you can from hybrid ceramic wax because the main reason the paint looks good is based on the polishing of the paint, just wont get the hydrophobic properties.

Edited March 28, 2019 by Nick Halstead

[MaX83_ZA]

3 hours ago, Nick Halstead said:

take a APC and dilute it 3/1 spray on surface, let it dwell for 5 mins then spray off and hybrid ceramic wax will basically be gone. A dedicated SIO2 spray sealant like Carpro Reload or Gyeon Cure is a better option. You can literally get the same look from a bottle of windex (this test has been done also) as you can from hybrid ceramic wax because the main reason the paint looks good is based on the polishing of the paint, just wont get the hydrophobic properties.

 

I have seen as many great reviews as negative reviews, I am testing this one myself and will then make up my mind. At $14 a bottle (Canadian) it is a cheap experiment. If it provides more protection than regular Wax, its already a win. If it doesnt provide the protection, it at least looks like and applies like a regular wax so its also a win. The one review I watched, the dude ran a DA with cutting compound over it and it didnt remove the HC i.e. it should provide relatively good protection against micro-marring when drying which is a step up from just a wax. I fully agree that it provides virtually no protection against chemical cleaners but both my cars are relatively pampered and will never see harsh touchless wash cleaners anyway.

 

What does you current detailing routine entail? 

[Nick Halstead]

1 hour ago, MaX83_ZA said:

 

I have seen as many great reviews as negative reviews, I am testing this one myself and will then make up my mind. At $14 a bottle (Canadian) it is a cheap experiment. If it provides more protection than regular Wax, its already a win. If it doesnt provide the protection, it at least looks like and applies like a regular wax so its also a win. The one review I watched, the dude ran a DA with cutting compound over it and it didnt remove the HC i.e. it should provide relatively good protection against micro-marring when drying which is a step up from just a wax. I fully agree that it provides virtually no protection against chemical cleaners but both my cars are relatively pampered and will never see harsh touchless wash cleaners anyway.

 

What does you current detailing routine entail? 

cutting compound def removes the product, I haven't seen said video, but if a water test was done, water will always bead if used after any type of compound, something that takes swirls off the top micron of a clearcoat will def wipe away a chemical shield on top of the clearcoat. 
 

Most real ceramics can't even prevent most micro-marring so there is no way an OTC highly diluted SIO2 ceramic/wax infused spray will do this.

My current detailing routine depends on what the customer has me doing, Am I ceramic coating it, Just washing it? My Edge is Ceramic coated in Cquartz, My Audi has Gyeon Cancoat on it to test it's durability and how good it is with swirls since it's a short life ceramic with extreme hydrophobic properties but not so good properties when it comes to marring and swirling, that was applied in Dec 2017, The glass on the car is till amazing, the paint, still beads but the coating is gone, but it far exceeded 6 months. Though as the military moves me from Hi, to AZ to NC withing one year, the Audi looks horrible since all it gets is waterless washes with ONR and live in a desert apartment. When I get to NC, I already have it set for, wash/chemical decon/mechanical decon/tar remover/2 step paint correction via My FLEX 3401/then wiped clean with IPA and then ceramic coated with Kamikaze Zipang and Myobi combo. Normal for my car is just a foam with Swissvax and then a 2 bucket wash with the soap, dried with a Klin Korea Duo drying towel and then a blower in tight spaces. Though most my jobs are coatings, so they go like this...

 

Edited March 28, 2019 by Nick Halstead

[MaX83_ZA]

57 minutes ago, Nick Halstead said:

cutting compound def removes the product, I haven't seen said video, but if a water test was done, water will always bead if used after any type of compound, something that takes swirls off the top micron of a clearcoat will def wipe away a chemical shield on top of the clearcoat. 
 

Most real ceramics can't even prevent most micro-marring so there is no way an OTC highly diluted SIO2 ceramic/wax infused spray will do this.

My current detailing routine depends on what the customer has me doing, Am I ceramic coating it, Just washing it? My Edge is Ceramic coated in Cquartz, My Audi has Gyeon Cancoat on it to test it's durability and how good it is with swirls since it's a short life ceramic with extreme hydrophobic properties but not so good properties when it comes to marring and swirling, that was applied in Dec 2017, The glass on the car is till amazing, the paint, still beads but the coating is gone, but it far exceeded 6 months. Though as the military moves me from Hi, to AZ to NC withing one year, the Audi looks horrible since all it gets is waterless washes with ONR and live in a desert apartment. When I get to NC, I already have it set for, wash/chemical decon/mechanical decon/tar remover/2 step paint correction via My FLEX 3401/then wiped clean with IPA and then ceramic coated with Kamikaze Zipang and Myobi combo. Normal for my car is just a foam with Swissvax and then a 2 bucket wash with the soap, dried with a Klin Korea Duo drying towel and then a blower in tight spaces. Though most my jobs are coatings, so they go like this...

 

 

Awesome, didnt know you were a professional detailer! I am more of a weekend warrior. I did a couple of show and shines back in the day (before ceramics were this mainstream) but now only do it once, maybe twice a year depending on whether I buy a new car or helping a friend. So for me, ease of use, speed and cost is very important. I try to get a decent base and then maintain it so naturally when the quick ceramics like HC and Adams Spray Ceramic were launched, I jumped on it.

 

If I find the vid on the HC i will post it, but seems like you made up your mind anyways so dont want to waste both our time lol! 

[Nick Halstead]

4 hours ago, MaX83_ZA said:

 

Awesome, didnt know you were a professional detailer! I am more of a weekend warrior. I did a couple of show and shines back in the day (before ceramics were this mainstream) but now only do it once, maybe twice a year depending on whether I buy a new car or helping a friend. So for me, ease of use, speed and cost is very important. I try to get a decent base and then maintain it so naturally when the quick ceramics like HC and Adams Spray Ceramic were launched, I jumped on it.

 

If I find the vid on the HC i will post it, but seems like you made up your mind anyways so dont want to waste both our time lol! 

My main issue is the label "ceramic made easy" false advertisement cause it's more wax, than it is ceramic, it's like having 5 gallons of water and pouring in a shot of pine-sol (without the strong smell..lol)

 

same with the mothers product that says "coat like a pro the affordable and easy way" marketing words aimed at people thinking they are getting a $2,000. ceramic job for less than $15.

I'm not a professional, it's a lil bit more than a weekend thing for me though but my day to day activities are controlled via U.S. Army. Every weekend for the past year or so I had a different car in my garage getting some type of work done, It was a big leap, cause I never wanted to do other peoples cars, but I did my boss' truck and then his boss saw it and his brand new hellcat with 4,000 miles ended up in my driveway and it spread from there.