JUST REMINDER WE TUNE 19 EDGE ST

[akirby]

2 hours ago, Fingernip said:

The consumers don’t care about sales and profit margins. Ford May have a totally different agenda but PR needs to be in touch with what people respond to. I feel the ad campaign is going in the right direction but a bit on the soft side. “Sneaky fast” just feels odd. Like a 3rd grade class was tasked with making the ad. 

 

That’s because you’re trying to target the wrong demographic.  Those people either want a smaller sports car and/or they don’t want to/aren’t able to spend $50K.   The people who are spending $50K on an Edge ST aren’t trying to win stoplight races.

 

In other words you’re in the minority.  That’s not bad or wrong but it explains Ford’s marketing strategy.  Also confirmed by Livernois.

[handfiler]

14 minutes ago, akirby said:

 

The people who are spending $50K on an Edge ST aren’t trying to win stoplight races.

 

 

Not all of us. ?

Edited February 27, 2019 by handfiler

[Nick Halstead]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

 

That’s because you’re trying to target the wrong demographic.  Those people either want a smaller sports car and/or they don’t want to/aren’t able to spend $50K.   The people who are spending $50K on an Edge ST aren’t trying to win stoplight races.

 

In other words you’re in the minority.  That’s not bad or wrong but it explains Ford’s marketing strategy.  Also confirmed by Livernois.

Perfect wording Akirby, one of the few times I can honestly say, we are on the same thought process.
Ford does not have that middle aged mod happy crowd in the SUV segmant, all those people drive mustangs or f150s and those of us who like the Edge end up screwed.

[Nick Halstead]

5 hours ago, akirby said:

The difference in the Sport vs the ST is the Ford Performance team and it just signifies the top performance model  (until they add a RS version).

 

And it's not about beating the competition in stoplight races or autocrosses.  It's about generating more sales and higher profit margins.

I should probably read these oldest to newest instead of newest to oldest, would really help me out.

 

That Sport/ST line is dead on, thats what I have been trying to say the whole time. (MONTHS!) This isn't a complete FPV build, it's just trim level now tweaked by FPV. But you can't tell a ST owner that it's just a trim level that replaced the word "sport"

Sales and profits, the ruler of all things evil! 

Edited February 27, 2019 by Nick Halstead

[akirby]

1 hour ago, handfiler said:

Not all of us. ?

 

98%

[handfiler]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

 

98%

 

2%'er ?

[Fingernip]

3 hours ago, akirby said:

 

That’s because you’re trying to target the wrong demographic.  Those people either want a smaller sports car and/or they don’t want to/aren’t able to spend $50K.   The people who are spending $50K on an Edge ST aren’t trying to win stoplight races.

 

In other words you’re in the minority.  That’s not bad or wrong but it explains Ford’s marketing strategy.  Also confirmed by Livernois.

All of it’s closest performing competitors are well embraced by tuners and weekend racers. I would say the correct demographic is the person who wants to go fast but probably won’t, yet practicality keeps them from buying a real  sports car. Same person who buys a canned tune yet never goes to the track. Or pays for a cat back just to change the exhaust note and claims “seat of the pants” gains. 43-50k is a mini van or a pretty basic work truck. The one who chooses the edge ST knows they want sport and like the bragging rights. 

[Dsmtweaker]

10 hours ago, akirby said:

 

98%

 

 I would beg to differ.   I came from an Audi S3, which was 60k.  It’s the “sports” version of the Audi A3.  The price of a vehicle is very subjective as 50 K for a car might be expensive to some, and cheap to others.  Also, a cars price doesn’t effect people parts purchases or modding, as you can get just as many parts for an Audi R8 or a GTR as you can a Honda Civic.

 

the a3 had limited aftermarket options, while the S3 had plenty.   That’s because the manufacturers New that people purchasing a “S” Platform are more performance driven.  

 

The edge is no different, The majority that wont modify a car won’t ever buy the ST, they will stick to a different trim.  Just like they would buy an a3 over an s3,  or an impresa over an STI.

 

the ST is also unique  in the sense that it fills a void in the market of having size and performance at this price point.   The closest comparables are going to cost at least 20k more.  So a lot folks who want both size and speed under 70k will be drawn to the ST.

 

so while the majority might not mod, I would confidently say, if parts were available, at the very minimum 20-30% of owners would.  Which is on par with all other proformance based vehicles.  

 

[akirby]

10 minutes ago, Dsmtweaker said:

 

the a3 had limited aftermarket options, while the S3 had plenty.   That’s because the manufacturers New that people purchasing a “S” Platform are more performance driven.  

 

 

so while the majority might not mod, I would confidently say, if parts were available, at the very minimum 20-30% of owners would.  Which is on par with all other proformance based vehicles.  

 

 

But what percentage of A3 sales are S3?   I bet it's a very small percentage. 

 

Also - S3 is a sedan and it's a global vehicle so there is a much larger owner base.   Edge ST is NA only.   Euro models don't get the 2.7L.

 

The better comparison would be the SQ5.   How many aftermarket parts/tuners available strictly for it and not just carried over from S3?

 

Nobody is saying that nobody wants mods, just that it's a much smaller number than other vehicles and that makes it harder to justify the investment by aftermarket parts vendors.

A lot of older drivers want more power but don't want mods so they go for the ST.   Most of them would probably get a 2.7L Titanium if it was available.   Or they just like the looks.

[Nick Halstead]

1 hour ago, Dsmtweaker said:

 

 I would beg to differ.   I came from an Audi S3, which was 60k.  It’s the “sports” version of the Audi A3.  The price of a vehicle is very subjective as 50 K for a car might be expensive to some, and cheap to others.  Also, a cars price doesn’t effect people parts purchases or modding, as you can get just as many parts for an Audi R8 or a GTR as you can a Honda Civic.

 

the a3 had limited aftermarket options, while the S3 had plenty.   That’s because the manufacturers New that people purchasing a “S” Platform are more performance driven.  

 

The edge is no different, The majority that wont modify a car won’t ever buy the ST, they will stick to a different trim.  Just like they would buy an a3 over an s3,  or an impresa over an STI.

 

the ST is also unique  in the sense that it fills a void in the market of having size and performance at this price point.   The closest comparables are going to cost at least 20k more.  So a lot folks who want both size and speed under 70k will be drawn to the ST.

 

so while the majority might not mod, I would confidently say, if parts were available, at the very minimum 20-30% of owners would.  Which is on par with all other proformance based vehicles.  

 

 S3 to ST, fuck thats a horrible downgrade in quality

 

My A3 has nothing but S3 parts on it.

[Nick Halstead]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

 

But what percentage of A3 sales are S3?   I bet it's a very small percentage. 

 

Also - S3 is a sedan and it's a global vehicle so there is a much larger owner base.   Edge ST is NA only.   Euro models don't get the 2.7L.

 

The better comparison would be the SQ5.   How many aftermarket parts/tuners available strictly for it and not just carried over from S3?

 

Nobody is saying that nobody wants mods, just that it's a much smaller number than other vehicles and that makes it harder to justify the investment by aftermarket parts vendors.

A lot of older drivers want more power but don't want mods so they go for the ST.   Most of them would probably get a 2.7L Titanium if it was available.   Or they just like the looks.

 

SQ5 has probably 400% more aftermarket parts than all edge gens combined

[Fingernip]

4 minutes ago, Nick Halstead said:

 

SQ5 has probably 400% more aftermarket parts than all edge gens combined

Probably true... Would be mostly due to world market. US sales for all Q5 models are half that of US sales of all Edge models. I would imagine a higher percent of fords are sport trim than Audi sells S models. But those figures are blown out of the water once you factor Europe. Again.. we are only 6 months in to the earliest possible delivered ST. I would give it some time to see if demand fuels aftermarket parts. 

[akirby]

This is really a moot debate.  If the demand is there the aftermarket companies will come through with products.   If not they won't.  Doesn't matter what we think.

[Nick Halstead]

9 hours ago, Fingernip said:

Probably true... Would be mostly due to world market. US sales for all Q5 models are half that of US sales of all Edge models. I would imagine a higher percent of fords are sport trim than Audi sells S models. But those figures are blown out of the water once you factor Europe. Again.. we are only 6 months in to the earliest possible delivered ST. I would give it some time to see if demand fuels aftermarket parts. 

the Q5 group (10k) alone has more centralized members than almost all the top Edge Groups (13k between all those groups) combined. The motor in the ST has been out for almost 5 years, it has yet to garner any real attention. 

Edited February 28, 2019 by Nick Halstead

[vmaxbaby]

As of right now I have to agree with Nick and akriby I don't see anyone (aftermarket) rushing to make go fast parts for the Edge.  I have hammered all the companies that make exhaust systems for mustangs, F150's and non of the big boys make it for the EDGE ST except for MRT but they are just mufflers and not a true cat back.  Borla makes full cat back for explorer and when I ask the sales guy while explorer has a cat-back his  answer was the market is flooded with explorers so they felt they would make all their money back easy.   Also spent a snowday off from work calling the major companies that make CAI and got the same shut down in that department.  JLT intake which I run on my Shelby and have run on other mustangs I owned they said they got a ST in their shop and looked to see how to make an improvement and according to the guy I talked to they couldn't see a way to make something allot better and cost effective ?  I would have just liked to had exhaust, intake and tune for it.  I myself don't need bigger turbo's, Throttle Body, IC, etc. because this is my daily driver and honestly I already have a 10 second mustang sitting in the garage that is so hopped up I have to run 93 octane and torco or the like,  so just wanted the Edge to be a fun daily driver but a little faster than the other brands in this segment that cost more than the edge.   Fun meaning if they would have given it 380 hp from the factory and 425 lb-ft I think that would have done the trick If they were to sell as many Edge ST as they did Focus ST and Fiesta ST the aftermarket would have to take notice but I think with vehicles like Mustangs / Trucks / Camaro's / Chargers ' etc.  the aftermarket is going after those cars and not worrying about the ST.   Could the ST Model change that for the Edge and Explorer??? I would love it.  But with that said I still plan on getting a ST in the spring or mid year knowing what I know because I need a daily bigger than my  escape and being a Ford guy it really is the only choice since I don't need a truck and the explorer which I do like just isn't as sporty as the Edge Sports/ST.  

Edited February 28, 2019 by vmaxbaby

[Fingernip]

12 hours ago, Nick Halstead said:

the Q5 group (10k) alone has more centralized members than almost all the top Edge Groups (13k between all those groups) combined. The motor in the ST has been out for almost 5 years, it has yet to garner any real attention. 

Fords 2.7L has a ton of attention but mostly in the F150. The edge again was always seen as a pretty vanilla CUV and was always lost in the crowd (Other than when people would see them in person). The sport model only seemed to get any recognition in the 2011-2014 models as its wheels and unique trim options made it stand out more, unfortunately its performance was never much greater than a regular trim level edge.  Ford is now trying something new with the ST, cripple the base trim and bring the top model in as a Ford performance vehicle rather than a simple trim level. It is an opportunity to change the image of the edge as a mom car to a performance CUV and hopefully it works. 

[Nick Halstead]

33 minutes ago, Fingernip said:

Fords 2.7L has a ton of attention but mostly in the F150. The edge again was always seen as a pretty vanilla CUV and was always lost in the crowd (Other than when people would see them in person). The sport model only seemed to get any recognition in the 2011-2014 models as its wheels and unique trim options made it stand out more, unfortunately its performance was never much greater than a regular trim level edge.  Ford is now trying something new with the ST, cripple the base trim and bring the top model in as a Ford performance vehicle rather than a simple trim level. It is an opportunity to change the image of the edge as a mom car to a performance CUV and hopefully it works. 

 

we are talking transverse motors, F150 is completely irrelevant. 2011 is first year they put a larger motor in the Sport, so yes it gained attention. 2015 Sport had no Ford Press, no commercials, no catchy social media press kit but tons of online press reviews and all was positive, 2019 ST has had tons of Ford Pres, commercials, gimmicky social media press kits and hardly any online reviews and the few they have aren't really good reviews. If you email some of the people who review vehicles and have not reviewed the ST but did review the Sport, you will probably get the response I got, "Spec sheet is so similar to the Sport, no need to review it." The fusion Sport Forum just found out the ST really existed, they think it's one giant gimmick and think it's highly overrated, specially the brake package, this caused me to actually go look at the brake package. Ford is nuts, they have lost there minds. The official page for Ford says that the calipers are the exact same, just ones red and you get bigger front rotors, vented rears with slotted heat shields (why is slotted heat shields even listed), better brake pads and summer tires along with brushless radiator fan. This is exactly the problem with the ST in my opinion. I can't even understand how somebody would even want to select that option, Fords wording and marketing make you think, giant 4 piston RS Brembos, but all you get is a bigger rotor in reality and to justify the price, we gonna put some slots in the heat shield. ST should have got the 3.0 and the Explorer ST should have got the gen2 3.5. That would have done better, but in reality if it has the blue oval and is not a mustang or f150, it's not getting no real support.

[Fingernip]

2 minutes ago, Nick Halstead said:

 

we are talking transverse motors, F150 is completely irrelevant. 2011 is first year they put a larger motor in the Sport, so yes it gained attention. 2015 Sport had no Ford Press, no commercials, no catchy social media press kit but tons of online press reviews and all was positive, 2019 ST has had tons of Ford Pres, commercials, gimmicky social media press kits and hardly any online reviews and the few they have aren't really good reviews. If you email some of the people who review vehicles and have not reviewed the ST but did review the Sport, you will probably get the response I got, "Spec sheet is so similar to the Sport, no need to review it." The fusion Sport Forum just found out the ST really existed, they think it's one giant gimmick and think it's highly overrated, specially the brake package, this caused me to actually go look at the brake package. Ford is nuts, they have lost there minds. The official page for Ford says that the calipers are the exact same, just ones red and you get bigger front rotors, vented rears with slotted heat shields (why is slotted heat shields even listed), better brake pads and summer tires along with brushless radiator fan. This is exactly the problem with the ST in my opinion. I can't even understand how somebody would even want to select that option, Fords wording and marketing make you think, giant 4 piston RS Brembos, but all you get is a bigger rotor in reality and to justify the price, we gonna put some slots in the heat shield. ST should have got the 3.0 and the Explorer ST should have got the gen2 3.5. That would have done better, but in reality if it has the blue oval and is not a mustang or f150, it's not getting no real support.

The engine orientation doesn't really negate my point. Its shows people recognize the potential of the 2.7 and are interested in exploiting it. The edge 2nd gen as much as you may have loved it was not the most popular platform for enthusiasts. The ST takes that same platform and tries to say "Look this is a car you all know... but re-engineered to be fun". Ford is trying to re-market the car to replace some of the small cars. I agree the brake package is ridiculous but the regular brakes are phenomenal. The 2.7 i feel is the right engine still though as they would have to do some real magic to rework the trans-axle to handle the power and abuse people would put it though. All that work to gain 60hp and 10ft/lbs torque with some potential added weight. Also do you know if the 3.0 also uses the compacted graphite modular block? If not I would definitely stick with the 2.7. 

[omar302]

1 hour ago, Nick Halstead said:

 

Explorer ST should have got the gen2 3.5. That would have done better, but in reality if it has the blue oval and is not a mustang or f150, it's not getting no real support.

 

The Explorer being developed with Police duty in mind and much higher sales actually has Ford's attention. The Police Utility version outperformed the police Charger V8s (AWD & RWD) in all performance tests of the Michigan State Police (0-60, Top Speed & Lap times). 

[Nick Halstead]

48 minutes ago, omar302 said:

 

The Explorer being developed with Police duty in mind and much higher sales actually has Ford's attention. The Police Utility version outperformed the police Charger V8s (AWD & RWD) in all performance tests of the Michigan State Police (0-60, Top Speed & Lap times). 

 

Too bad we dont want Fords attention, we want aftermarket suppliers

[Nick Halstead]

2 hours ago, Fingernip said:

The edge 2nd gen as much as you may have loved it was not the most popular platform for enthusiasts. The ST takes that same platform and tries to say "Look this is a car you all know... but re-engineered to be fun". Ford is trying to re-market the car to replace some of the small cars. I agree the brake package is ridiculous but the regular brakes are phenomenal. The 2.7 i feel is the right engine still though as they would have to do some real magic to rework the trans-axle to handle the power and abuse people would put it though. All that work to gain 60hp and 10ft/lbs torque with some potential added weight. Also do you know if the 3.0 also uses the compacted graphite modular block? If not I would definitely stick with the 2.7. 

 

The 2nd gen and 2.5gen is the least liked generation. The 1.5gen is the favorite. Shit, even I like the exterior styling of 1.5gen over all other gens. Just like the 2.7 performance better. The 3.0 does not require any extra work to fit the edge, it already comes in the same CD4 chassis. Fusion Sport members are already entertaining the 3.0 swap.

[Fingernip]

20 minutes ago, Nick Halstead said:

 

The 2nd gen and 2.5gen is the least liked generation. The 1.5gen is the favorite. Shit, even I like the exterior styling of 1.5gen over all other gens. Just like the 2.7 performance better. The 3.0 does not require any extra work to fit the edge, it already comes in the same CD4 chassis. Fusion Sport members are already entertaining the 3.0 swap.

Thats alot of work for .3L displacement. Are there any great tunes for the 3.0 yet? Again is the 3.0L block and internals superior? It might even be a downgrade for all we know. Is the Lincoln MKZ the only vehicle on the platform using the 3.0L it uses a 6 speed trans.. are there any 3.0L vehicles using the 8 speed?

Edited February 28, 2019 by Fingernip

[Nick Halstead]

1 hour ago, Fingernip said:

Thats alot of work for .3L displacement. Are there any great tunes for the 3.0 yet? Again is the 3.0L block and internals superior? It might even be a downgrade for all we know. Is the Lincoln MKZ the only vehicle on the platform using the 3.0L it uses a 6 speed trans.. are there any 3.0L vehicles using the 8 speed?

You would have to look into all the lincoln vehicles for that. I will say, the 2.7 in the fusion seems to have way more issues than it has had in the edge. Which is why they are looking for an engine upgrade. @037 can tell you his dyno #s from his tuned 3.0, I cant recall them.

Edited February 28, 2019 by Nick Halstead

[akirby]

1 hour ago, Fingernip said:

Thats alot of work for .3L displacement. Are there any great tunes for the 3.0 yet? Again is the 3.0L block and internals superior? It might even be a downgrade for all we know. Is the Lincoln MKZ the only vehicle on the platform using the 3.0L it uses a 6 speed trans.. are there any 3.0L vehicles using the 8 speed?

 

There are no new/continuing transverse 3.0L engines planned as far as I know once Fusion dies and MKZ either dies or moves to CD6 and neither of those will get the new 8 speed.

All transverse engines going forward will be on the C2 platform (Escape, Maverick, Corsair, a smaller utility to replace Ecosport and a trucklet) and will probably top out at 2.3L (I4 or I3 only).

V6s and V8s will only be available in RWD unibody (Explorer/Aviator/Mustang), F150, Ranger, Bronco and vans.

 

Next gen Edge and Nautilus is the monkey in the middle and could go on a larger C2 (fwd transverse) or a smaller CD6 (rwd longitudinal).   This one is up in the air with conflicting reports.

I don't think Ford wants the expense of a V6 for the C2 program, but I could be wrong.

[onyxbfly]

3 hours ago, Nick Halstead said:

 

 The official page for Ford says that the calipers are the exact same, just ones red and you get bigger front rotors, vented rears with slotted heat shields (why is slotted heat shields even listed), better brake pads and summer tires along with brushless radiator fan. This is exactly the problem with the ST in my opinion. I can't even understand how somebody would even want to select that option, Fords wording and marketing make you think, giant 4 piston RS Brembos, but all you get is a bigger rotor in reality and to justify the price, we gonna put some slots in the heat shield. 

 

I was wondering if anyone was going to talk about the ST performance brake package.  Since the calipers are the same, I'm of strong opinion that the front brake rotors are the same as the edge sport rotors. The ford webpage says larger 13.6" rotors....If you were to replace your front rotors today they ask if you have the 345mm rotors.  13.6in = 345mm!  

 

A quick google shows that the ST brakes are compatible with the sport. Are they any different or are they the same?  What are the benefits of a brushless radiator fan?