Loss of brakes-Part II - The Smoking Gun....

[quincy]

At the end of October, 2018, the brakes went out on my 2012 Edge while on the freeway.

Here is the link to my original post:  

Now we are into 2019 and here is some additional information I have discovered about this issue!

 

Dealer could not explain what went wrong. I had to push the issue hard with the svc. manager. Finally after the 2nd "special brake flush" issue with brakes was corrected!

 

Now for the smoking gun..Daughter has a 2019 Honda Odyssey van. Recently she gets a recall for a brake issue. Honda must bleed rear brakes with a special procedure. I looked up the Honda recall. Seems there is an Issue with "coating on rear internal disc brake parts; creates air bubbles inside (sealed) system causing loss of brake pedal". I study up on who supplies brakes to Ford and Honda (& many others)....A Company called Akebono supplies to most of N.A.!

 

This is another "Takata" issue brewing!

 

I suspect Ford is covering up any knowledge of this 'loss of brake' issue.

 

I suspect that this 'loss of brake issue' will occur on thousands if not millions of other vehicles, it's just a matter of time!

 

Felt strong enough about this potential fatal issue to make another post (this one) and to file a complaint with NHTSA.....#11164252.

Please pass this info on to others as necessary........

 

 

[1004ron]

I'm not seeing any conclusive evidence here, and its not good etiquette to cross post the same thing all over the forum.

 

Cant you post some evidence with links etc.?

[akirby]

I agree.  If this was a widespread problem we would have heard more about it.

[quincy]

The engineering is all the same across all these vehicles.   Same components.  Do a google check on loss of brakes on a ford edge....hundreds of people have posted on line.  

When the potential exists for loss of life, I'm sorry, your perceived etiquette rule does not apply.  

All you have to do is look at the Takata Debacle.......

The 100% way to verify this would be to examine all the components drawings from Akebono.  If you can obtain them I would be happy to review them.

[1004ron]

1 hour ago, quincy said:

The engineering is all the same across all these vehicles.   Same components.  Do a google check on loss of brakes on a ford edge....hundreds of people have posted on line.  

When the potential exists for loss of life, I'm sorry, your perceived etiquette rule does not apply.  

All you have to do is look at the Takata Debacle.......

The 100% way to verify this would be to examine all the components drawings from Akebono.  If you can obtain them I would be happy to review them.

Come now, you made the claim, you back it up.

 

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1&q=loss+of+brakes+on+a+ford+edge

 

Point out which of the search results draws attention to "Seems there is an Issue with "coating on rear internal disc brake parts"".

 

 

[1004ron]

17 hours ago, quincy said:

I had to push the issue hard with the svc. manager. Finally after the 2nd "special brake flush" issue with brakes was corrected!

After umpteen posters advised you to take it to a competent dealership service centre, that dealership eventually learnt how to bleed brakes systems that include ABS.

 

You say the issue is corrected on your vehicle - does that mean they have changed the "coating on rear internal disc brake parts" ?

Edited January 6, 2019 by 1004ron

[quincy]

That's now up to the U.S. government.  I will assist them at no cost for as long as necessary.  NHTSA has the deep pockets necessary to uncover safety issues.....

[1004ron]

13 minutes ago, quincy said:

That's now up to the U.S. government.  I will assist them at no cost for as long as necessary.  NHTSA has the deep pockets necessary to uncover safety issues.....

Direct interpretation: you don't have the facts to back up your claims.

 

All we can hope for is that you stick to your word and leave it to the U. S Government.

[billfl]

brakes are a closed, hydraulic system. If air was introduced into the system, then there is/was a leak somewhere. Here's a tip, if you ever again run into a situation of the pedal going to the floor and it hasn't been slowly progressing to that, pump the brake pedal. There is nothing sinister going on here. A part failed, upon repair, the lines were not properly bled. You press on pedal(who cares if it's power assisted), fluid is pushed toward the calipers which in turn push upon the pads which engage with the rotating rotors to slow the vehicle.

 

If the pedal provides little resistance, then you have air in the lines. Again, it's hydraulics, not rocket science. No need for getting hysterical. It is up to we the owners/operators to get some basic knowledge of important items such as the engine needs oil and we should manually check it. The tires need air and again, manually check them. Brakes need fluid and you guessed it etc etc

 

Our lives and our passengers' lives depend upon it, and the responsibility begins with the person in the mirror

Edited January 22, 2019 by billfl

[quincy]

Bill,

 

I hope your correct.  I do appreciate your input.  I don't feel I'm being 'hysterical', just cautious, and not very trusting. 

I worked in the big three (including Ford) for a total of 35 years.  Engineering and Design....I know how they operate.  I've seen 'blind eye' decisions made based on the almighty dollar.......

 

Understand, I never received a logical answer from the Ford Dealership on what went wrong to cause the primary 'loss of brake pedal' issue.

 

After 5 weeks in the Ford Dealership shop they became 'parts changers', returned the vehicle to me with the same condition, stating this is the 'new normal'.

I would not accept that 'repair answer' and handed the keys over to the service manager telling him to let his wife drive the car for a month.

 

In the meantime my daughter received a recall on her Honda van, which uses the same Tier One Brake Supplier Ford uses,  Akebono.

Same caliper set up, same basic parts.  It seems that some internal components to the hydraulic system are 'off gassing' in some way. thus introducing air into the system.

 

A special brake bleed procedure is necessary to remove this air.  I call this discovery 'good Karma' and a warning of a 'system issue' which may be covered up.

 

I would recommend a preemptive brake bleed to any one with a Ford Vehicle to help prevent this from occurring to them.  This service can be performed at any Ford Dealership for under $100.00.  

I was lucky I could pull over to the shoulder.....there will be those who will not have that option.

[akirby]

Your "smoking gun" theory has one problem - this is the first description of this problem I've heard.  We've had master cylinder and booster failures but nothing like you described where the brakes went out completely and were fine after bleeding.

[billfl]

1 hour ago, quincy said:

Bill,

 

I hope your correct.  I do appreciate your input.  I don't feel I'm being 'hysterical', just cautious, and not very trusting. 

I worked in the big three (including Ford) for a total of 35 years.  Engineering and Design....I know how they operate.  I've seen 'blind eye' decisions made based on the almighty dollar.......

 

Understand, I never received a logical answer from the Ford Dealership on what went wrong to cause the primary 'loss of brake pedal' issue.

 

After 5 weeks in the Ford Dealership shop they became 'parts changers', returned the vehicle to me with the same condition, stating this is the 'new normal'.

I would not accept that 'repair answer' and handed the keys over to the service manager telling him to let his wife drive the car for a month.

 

In the meantime my daughter received a recall on her Honda van, which uses the same Tier One Brake Supplier Ford uses,  Akebono.

Same caliper set up, same basic parts.  It seems that some internal components to the hydraulic system are 'off gassing' in some way. thus introducing air into the system.

 

A special brake bleed procedure is necessary to remove this air.  I call this discovery 'good Karma' and a warning of a 'system issue' which may be covered up.

 

I would recommend a preemptive brake bleed to any one with a Ford Vehicle to help prevent this from occurring to them.  This service can be performed at any Ford Dealership for under $100.00.  

I was lucky I could pull over to the shoulder.....there will be those who will not have that option.

as is now apparent with the Takata fiasco, auto mfrs do not make all of their own parts. Many are outsourced and common across various platforms.

 

Heck, I had to replace a clutch master cylinder 4 times in a Honda Accord. No matter what "brand" was on the purchased part, it was sourced by the same Chinese manufacturuer and the same bolt sheared off of 3 replacement master cylinders thus causing a loss of all fluid and the clutch would not disengage. There are some junk parts out there and you might have had one which gave up the ghost. Then, stir in a newb tech who didn't properly bleed brakes and your story of woe grew. Any service writer who tells you that a spongey brake pedal is normal, needs to go back to a job asking ..."paper or plastic" ?

Edited January 22, 2019 by billfl

[quincy]

Akirby,

 

Spend a few minutes on Google....search for 'sudden loss of brake pedal on Ford Edge'.  You can spend an afternoon reading about this condition.  There are folks who have even placed a video of the issue on youtube; and some folks have had a repeat of the issue.  Most, if not all of the reporting owners,  have not taken their vehicle to a Ford Dealership, as I did.  My Ford vehicle has only been serviced at a Certified Ford Dealership its entire life.  There is an obvious reason for that....Ford Techs are certified in repair of Ford Vehicles.

 

Not many years ago brake systems were relatively simple.  Then in the mid 90's ABS came into vogue.  Now we have Traction Control and StabiliTrak systems.  The latter systems APPLY brake force to certain wheel ends to either transfer torque side to side or to halt wheel spin.  These systems work in conjunction with ABS but are more complicated.   These are PRAM parts, safety related, and I would hope the Tier One companies spend sufficient time on the required Design and Process FEMA's

 

It is also very plausible that Ford is not aware of the condition that can occur....the off gassing of a coating on internal brake components. 

 

Since the brake system is 'purchased finished' from Akebono it is possible 'they' are not sharing important safety data with Ford.

 

I'm hoping once the government shutdown is over and the engineers have a chance to catch up they will contact me so I can share this data with them for further analysis.  We will see.....

 

BTW, I am the original owner of this Edge, purchased new off the lot in 2012, and currently with less than 47K miles on the ODO.  It's been a very good vehicle (up to this point) and is still one of the favorite vehicles I've owned during my lifetime of driving, 50 years worth.

 

 

[1004ron]

On 1/6/2019 at 1:19 PM, 1004ron said:

Come now, you made the claim, you back it up.

 

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1&q=loss+of+brakes+on+a+ford+edge

 

Point out which of the search results draws attention to "Seems there is an Issue with "coating on rear internal disc brake parts"".

 

 

 

34 minutes ago, quincy said:

Akirby,

 

Spend a few minutes on Google....search for 'sudden loss of brake pedal on Ford Edge'. 

 

 

Yawn,

 

You made the wild claim but cant post a single link to support it.

 

 

Edited January 24, 2019 by 1004ron

[akirby]

Every link I see in google is about failed master cylinders or brake boosters.

[1004ron]

On 1/22/2019 at 3:36 PM, billfl said:

as is now apparent with the Takata fiasco, auto mfrs do not make all of their own parts. Many are outsourced and common across various platforms.

 

Heck, I had to replace a clutch master cylinder 4 times in a Honda Accord. No matter what "brand" was on the purchased part, it was sourced by the same Chinese manufacturuer and the same bolt sheared off of 3 replacement master cylinders thus causing a loss of all fluid and the clutch would not disengage. There are some junk parts out there and you might have had one which gave up the ghost. Then, stir in a newb tech who didn't properly bleed brakes and your story of woe grew. Any service writer who tells you that a spongey brake pedal is normal, needs to go back to a job asking ..."paper or plastic" ?

Many other members here repeatedly advised him to take the vehicle to different dealership because it was blatantly clear that they were incompetent, then after an uphill battle one of them at that dealership saw the light and realised what bleed procedure is required.

[1004ron]

40 minutes ago, quincy said:

It is also very plausible that Ford is not aware of the condition that can occur....the off gassing of a coating on internal brake components. 

 

You reported that your vehicles brakes are now repaired - did that include the replacing these "gassing" parts with "non-gassing" parts?

 

Please post the details, part numbers and description of the non-gassing parts.

[quincy]

Here you go!

 

Lou

 

https://www.consumerreports.org/car-recalls-defects/honda-recall-acura-honda-suvs-and-minivans-brake-issue/

 

 

[akirby]

That is a classic brake booster/master cylinder problem which is fixed by replacing one or both.

 

Show me another example where someone with an Edge completely lost their brake pedal and brakes suddenly and it was fixed by only bleeding the system.  Because that’s what you claimed.

[onyxbfly]

Nice socks tho!

[1004ron]

10 hours ago, quincy said:

Here you go!

 

Lou

 

https://www.consumerreports.org/car-recalls-defects/honda-recall-acura-honda-suvs-and-minivans-brake-issue/

 

 

ROFL

 

Digging deep and still no evidence of these "gassing" parts.

[akirby]

51 minutes ago, 1004ron said:

ROFL

 

Digging deep and still no evidence of these "gassing" parts.

 

No evidence of that in an Edge or any other Ford product.  

[TheWizard]

15 hours ago, quincy said:

Spend a few minutes on Google....search for 'sudden loss of brake pedal on Ford Edge'.  You can spend an afternoon reading about this condition.  There are folks who have even placed a video of the issue on youtube; and some folks have had a repeat of the issue.

 

 

Spend a few minutes on Google... search for "earth is flat".  You can spend an afternoon reading about it.  There are folks who have even placed a video on YouTube.

 

But of course everything that you see on the internet must be true.

 

Edited January 24, 2019 by TheWizard

[Fingernip]

The off gassing theory sounds odd. Off gassing into a seal hydraulic system would mean chemical reaction with brake fluid and formation of gas bubbles causing displacement. Any significant displacement will cause overfill of the brake fluid and will be reflected in the reservoir and/or high pedal.. A once correctly topped off system will slowly magically seem to gain fluid. 

[quincy]

19 minutes ago, Fingernip said:

The off gassing theory sounds odd. Off gassing into a seal hydraulic system would mean chemical reaction with brake fluid and formation of gas bubbles causing displacement. Any significant displacement will cause overfill of the brake fluid and will be reflected in the reservoir and/or high pedal.. A once correctly topped off system will slowly magically seem to gain fluid. 

Yes, it does sound odd, but there is a safety recall out for the condition.  I did not make the recall number up. It really exists. 

I realize 1 + 1 does not always = 2, but this one company makes all the brakes for the major OEM's.  Just like Takata made the air bagas for the major OEM's.  Look at that debacle. 

As of this date (3/5/19) I have not been contacted by anyone at NHTSA.  Time will tell if they ever do.

In the meantime my braking system is 100% functional and I have a 2 year 24K mile warranty from the dealership.