2.7 EB HPFP

[Xtra]

It has come to my attention that a high performance HPFP is needed for the 2.7 EB . These are available for almost every other displacement EB out there and somehow the 2.7 has been overlooked. The HPFP is the key to unlocking the full potential of this engine. If the engine has no fuel it does not matter what mods you do . The stock HPFP can only supply so much fuel and that ultimately determines how much power one can make. The HI Pressure Fuel Pump ( HPFP ) is driven off of the back cam lobe and I am not sure if we have 3 or 4 lobe cam on the 2.7 EB . A proper performance HPFP could deliver enough fuel to run E85 if wanted or needed. I have found HPFP that deliver 35% more and others at 60% more fuel than stock but they don't fit the 2.7EB. Anyway here are some drawings describing the HPFP and how it works.

 

Edited September 7, 2018 by Xtra

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

The F150 was probably the first one to get an upgraded aftermarket HPFP, and quite some time later, the SHO/MKS/Flex/Explorer. May or may not require permanent removal of the appearance cover. With any luck at most you will need to shave off some foam on the underside of the cover to fit, as has been done on the 3.5EB.

 

Livernois and XDI are the two vendors I know of currently making these pumps.

[Donto]

Hope this turns into a good discussion!

What is needed are flow & PSI data for both sides of the system, including the injectors. Lots of questions to be answered for you guys running FBO + big turbos. I'm excited as by the time I pickup my used Sport next year this should be more advanced.

 

The following is from the Mustang6g EB forum in regards to Vargas' reply on their LPFP for the platform:

"TWO PUMPS, one feeding the other. Both have their flow limits, if the feed (LPFP) pump reaches its flow limit before the second pump, then the flow of the second pump is diminished. Fixing the feed pump flow limit does not raise the limit of the second pump, it just allows it to work at its full potential. Once you upgrade the feed pump so it does not run out of the flow, the next thing you run into is the flow limit of the SECOND (HPFP) pump. At that point you upgrade that pump, then run into other bottlenecks, injectors, etc, etc. In order to keep making more power, you need fuel. The LPFP is STEP ONE in removing the bottle necks for a proper flowing fuel system."

[Xtra]

I think the LPFP is fine in the Edge Sport and it is the HPFP that needs addressing.

[Snox801]

The sho was in fact the first to get a hpfp. My truck was the one Livernois used to fit the sho one to a truck but it needed some work. You will also need larger injectors. Im running the hpfp and injectors on my rs for e85. Livernois I believe has one in the works if I remember correctly as they are working on one for the 2.0 and 2.7. The best thing you can do is to contact lms and let them know you have interest. Thats what drive them. Problem is it take a lot to produce and the cost is a lot. $1800 for the pump and then more for injectors. Unless you are running some crazy setup with a full built long block why not fuel the overhead with meth injection. Give you the octane and also give you cooler iats

[Xtra]

I believe the stock injectors will be fine with gas and would possibly only need upgrading with E85. It depends on how far you want to take it. Take it to far and then you need a stronger rotating assembly. I am looking for a HPFP that will work with the stock rods , injectors and PTU. I spoke to LMS within the last few weeks and they told me they are not working on one for the 2.7 unless I had them make a custom one for my car and that would cost way too much. Meth injection my opinion is best for race cars, not everyday drivers.

Edited September 8, 2018 by Xtra

[Snox801]

Well Ill tell you many told me they had no tuning for the 2.0 edge just this year and Ive been running it. So you ah e hope. I know for a fact they are indeed working or were working on it. Also meth is best used as a daily. I have it on all my ecoboost and is best as the daily. Here is why. First you cant always find e85 so like my rs I ya e it set up as flex fuel. My other ecoboost are my 3.5 truck and 2.0 edge both meth is the best fit as I cant be looking for e85 all the time. Meth allows me to run pump gas all day everyday but have performance at levels higher than e85 when Im in the boost hard. My truck for example has meth and its my work truck I daily drive all over the country for work. Just run 93 all the time. I fill the meth tank before I leave and when I reach the set boost level it sprays meth and is mapped for it. So I ha e all the power on tap but dont need any specific fuel. No looking for e85 just fill with meth. I can usually make a long trip say 3,000 miles on a single tank of meth and mines only 1 gallon a 2.5 tank would be a lot of meth to burn. Just my opinion and obeservation having both system currently meth is by far the easiest and my fav

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

Livernois is a big organization with a lot of concurrent projects in the works. So sometimes the real answer comes down to who you talk to, and how persistent you are. Just have to keep asking the questions.

 

Snox, good to know the SHO was the first to get an upgraded pump from Livernois, and even better, that it was yours!

 

Xtra, fuel injectors are probably the last thing you need to worry about unless you start to see them fail. Got over 600AWHP on the 3.5EB with stock injectors.

Edited September 9, 2018 by WWWPerfA_ZN0W

[Snox801]

Yes they are a large company with many people and projects. That being said I would not be to stuck on that pump either. The 2.0 guys have been waiting on a pump for a very long time. Part of the issue is how many diffrent things need to work out. The SHO ruins the same motor as the f-150 3.5 but not the same pump. I was asked to do the long term testing on the pump with my truck as I drive 60,000 a year with it and work it very hard. While trying to make it fit the truck figment issues arose. So it may not be just one pump maybe several. The. It will come down to number of customers they could sell to. The truck has the largest market share but most looking for power would opt for the 3.5 so it would be a hard sell in that application. But I would imagine with the edge st coming out you will see some more movement that will cross over.

[Xtra]

I started thinking about the fuel starvation problem and a possible way around the HPFP, just a thought experiment at this point. The new Gen two 2.7 EB has port injection as well as direct injection as used on the new F150. I have looked at prices of Gen 2 , 2.7EB intake manifolds, upper injectors and fuel rails. The cost of these items is way less than a custom HPFP. There are a few things I do not have a handle on though. I have not found a port injection fuel pump if there is one, and I am not sure that the upper injectors are actually located in the manifold and the wire harness. If the upper injectors are not in the manifold then this exercise is over. Control and programing are also things that will need to be addressed but this has been done before on custom 3.5EB engines by LMS. Control and programming would need to be addressed with a new HPFP anyway. If this is a feasible bolt on way to go then the port injectors could supply all the fuel ever needed and gain the benefits of washing / cooling the intake valves . Any ideas?

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

Add a second intank pump or a higher volume intank pump and run E85 along with the dual injection system You can connect with Mike Bambic of EcoPowerParts.com if you haven't already. He built a custom system for the 3.5 Ecoboost to do just this a few years back, since he is Arizona based and they get soso 91 as premium.

[Snox801]

I think you are going about this wrong. The only reason to go to a new hpfp is to run full e85. Yes our motor can take anything you can give them with stock turbos. You can max out you timing and boost for power on about e30 blend of fuel. This is what I do on my edge 2.0. So my truck has a 36 gallon tank so about 11 gallons of e85 then the rest premium. Or just do 10 gallons then every 1/4 tank you have a ref point. I did 5 gallons e85 in my Edge so every 1/4 is 1.25 so fillups are easy. Been 36,000 straight doing this and it works great.

Beside that a hpfp and injectors are great for flex fuel. But honestly meth is by far the best option. I have been running alky system with straight meth. I can extract loads more power than 93 keep my intake tract clean and lower intake air temps by a lot. No need for a intercooler. Ive run 176,000 miles this way on my truck and its the best for traveling. Only sprays when I hit a set boost point so it can last for a long time.

[Xtra]

I think you are going about this wrong. The only reason to go to a new hpfp is to run full e85. Yes our motor can take anything you can give them with stock turbos.

My turbos are not stock and the OEM HPFP cannot deliver enough fuel to the motor for the mods I have made. The correct way to go is a better HPFP but at this time there are none for the 2.7EB.

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

Who tunes your rides makes a big difference in how much performance you can extract. E is highly underrated as a fuel, especially in GTDI applications. Even with E30 you can rock your ride

[Snox801]

Correct e is a cheap way to max out you timing and boost.my bad I assumed you had stock turbos. I can tell you from a friend who went big turbo on his 3.5 even the hpfp has to be custom made on top of Livernois extreme to keep up. Im shocked more people dont do secondary fueling like the rails for the RS and st. Even the ones that have two nozzles In the spacer. But thats very similar setup to meth.

[Donto]

Correct e is a cheap way to max out you timing and boost.my bad I assumed you had stock turbos. I can tell you from a friend who went big turbo on his 3.5 even the hpfp has to be custom made on top of Livernois extreme to keep up. Im shocked more people dont do secondary fueling like the rails for the RS and st. Even the ones that have two nozzles In the spacer. But thats very similar setup to meth.

 

If the FWD/AWD 2.7l platforms got some love in the aftermarket modification department, secondary fuel rail system would probably pop up. But reality is that it is not a popular mod platform/market as compared to the RWD 2.7l market of the F150. It's interesting that Ford didn't bother with the secondary port injection on the 2019 Edge ST that the 2.7l F150 now has.

 

Over on the FB 'Ford Edge Sport - Got Boost?' group, a tuner, Adam Staszak, posted 2 weeks ago stated that the HPFP on all the 2.7l engines are of the same capacity and that the calculations showed it can support E85, on a stock engine at least. Questions are can the tank LPFP support the HPFP at the max flow rates? Are the injector flow rates matched to HFPF to deliver at what is needed max pulse width? I don't think any Sport owner has stepped up yet to get a full E85 tune to confirm it with him.

[Snox801]

He is wrong. It will not support full e85. The hpfp is the same on the truck as the edge and it is not capable of full e85. I know a few that got to e30. The tank pump should be fine as all other ecoboost ones are. Usually its a combo of new hpfp and injectors needed. Easier and cheaper to go port injection though. So hes either wrong which would be weird because the internet is never wrong or lots of other tuners ya e missed it. I lean towards hes wrong.

[Snox801]

I do think that because these are costing so much more that you wont see any big push for mods until a few years from now when warrenties start to expire. Seems the focus RS had the same thing no big push until they went out of warrenty.

[snmjim]

To add to this topic some first hand facts on the Gen 2 Sport & being highly experienced as one of the first east coast Gen 2 to be fully bolted & tuned by National Speed (Wilmington & Richmond) we found that the stock HPFP will take 93 octane to its Max potential only when you upgrade the Turbos, IC, IC cold side pipe & down pipes.

This removes all the major bottle necks to allow the beast inside to be freed!...

 

Notes for the performance minded:

 

- Stock Turbos are to small to maintain high end boost but can be easily modified to achieve a bolt on significant power improvement solution.

 

- The stock IC is to small even for stock applications but easily replaced/resolved to achieve significantly lower IATs.

 

- The IC cold side boost tube to throttle body intake tube has a significant drop in diameter from one end to the other and should be replaced with a pipe that stays consistent throughout with the IC tube diameter.

 

- The down pipes themselves are acceptable however, the integrated catalytic converter itself is too restrictive and will not allow for maximum 93 octane tuning due to rising catalytic converter Temps therefore, the stock pipes must be modified with Hi-Flow catalytic converters which in-turn drops the Cat Temps or if your in a State where you don't have emissions compliance requirements then by all means go CAT-LESS!!!.

 

- Aaaand of course you MUST use a VERY Eco boost experienced Tuner to safely squeeze out every bit of HP while maintaining daily drivability and believe it or not much better MPG...

 

BIG THANKS goes out to Snox801...I'm giving the Meth injection advice some serious consideration over the HPFP since the engineering logistics and domino affect involved are much less..."VALUE ADDED FOR EFFORT EXPENDED".....

Edited October 31, 2018 by snmjim

[snmjim]

On ‎10‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 10:09 AM, Snox801 said:

I think you are going about this wrong. The only reason to go to a new hpfp is to run full e85. Yes our motor can take anything you can give them with stock turbos. You can max out you timing and boost for power on about e30 blend of fuel. This is what I do on my edge 2.0. So my truck has a 36 gallon tank so about 11 gallons of e85 then the rest premium. Or just do 10 gallons then every 1/4 tank you have a ref point. I did 5 gallons e85 in my Edge so every 1/4 is 1.25 so fillups are easy. Been 36,000 straight doing this and it works great.

Beside that a hpfp and injectors are great for flex fuel. But honestly meth is by far the best option. I have been running alky system with straight meth. I can extract loads more power than 93 keep my intake tract clean and lower intake air temps by a lot. No need for a intercooler. Ive run 176,000 miles this way on my truck and its the best for traveling. Only sprays when I hit a set boost point so it can last for a long time.

 

What Meth system do you recommend that's simple, cost effective, reliable, taps from the washer bottle and can be programmed in the tune to inject at a designated boost level? 

[Special_K]

On ‎11‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 1:54 PM, snmjim said:

 

What Meth system do you recommend that's simple, cost effective, reliable, taps from the washer bottle and can be programmed in the tune to inject at a designated boost level? 

I would be very cautious about running a tune based on the need of methanol... methanol should NEVER be the basis of a tune, instead an additive.  Yes methanol can be used as fuel source to richen up a mixture, should it be used for that, no.  A tunes AFR targets that based and only achieved souly on the use of meth is a very unsafe tune and can lead to engine failure.  How you may ask, its simple.....meth will run out before your gas does.  when you run out of meth and do not have a controller (there is not one for the edge yet) you run the risk of quickly draining you meth tank and the running lean, and we all know what running lean does to engine....BOOM. 

 

A properly setup daily driven tune vehicle has a fuel setup that can keep up with demands with 15% head room for colder conditions where more fuel is needed and a few other extremes.  Meth is just an additive whose sole purpose is to lower boost temps and add a little more fuel not to be relied on as a fuel source itself. 

Edited November 9, 2018 by Special_K