Is this the end of any FORScan mods?

[tk2fast]

It looks like Ford is eliminating everyone except those authorized by Ford from making any changes with the new FDRS system (Ford diagnostic and repair system). From what I understand the system is cloud based (so no stand alone systems) and requires a license & password along with the VIN of the vehicle. Therefor Ford has complete control of any mods. Looks like many 2018 Ford vehicles and all future models will no longer have consumer access for modifications. This is total BS! Personally I think it's important for those wanting to change or add features on the auto they own, to be able to do just that. If I want the push of my turn signal to be 5 flashes instead of 3, then I should be able to do that. If I don't want the 2 honk feature when exiting my car, then let me disable it. If I want the dash display to show the HVAC functions, then I should have that choice. If I want to add a key without paying exorbitant costs, I should be able to do that.

If I'm missing something please chime in or if anyone has something to add, please do so...

Edited July 7, 2018 by tk2fast

[akirby]

Not sure that means that Forscan will no longer work. Have you seen someone trying to use it and it failing?

 

Even if it does, you don’t have any rights to be able to modify Ford’s proprietary software. I understand wanting to do it and it is nice to be able to customize the vehicle beyond what the factory provides but Ford (and any other company) has no obligation to allow it at all.

[I'manedgeowner]

I think you misunderstand what you read about FDRS. The new system is cloud based and some companies like Autel, which Ford took to court, were accessing Ford data in the cloud and incorporating in to their products without paying the necessary license fees. If you have FDRS or an authorized system you can still make any changes you could before. If you're willing to explore a couple of million lines of code on your own, you can still get in to the system, track down what you want to change and write your own code. Also, I haven't seen or heard of anything where Ford is changing its Open Source Initiative program.

[tk2fast]

Posted Today, 12:59 PM

Akirby, there are a few posts on the FORScan forums that describe having the same problem when trying to mod an 2018 Expedition. Here is what they encountered.

 

Every time I try to write a block, the procedure ends with "Service procedure has been interrupted" after reading all ten blocks.

 

Additionally Ford has this to say about the FDRS system.

 

Ford Diagnostic & Repair System (FDRS) - The next generation factory Ford Motor Company vehicle diagnostic Software designed for use with VCM II, VCMM and J2534 compatible Vehicle Communications Interfaces (VCI). FDRS provides complete dealership level vehicle diagnostic coverage for some 2018 and forward vehicles. FDRS provides superior capabilities, is more user-friendly and provides more diagnostic tools than IDS. The cloud-based system ensures the technician is provided the latest software every time FDRS logs into the Ford network.

 

And I do understand that it is proprietary software, but when I purchase a $45K vehicle I am also purchasing the software that runs that vehicle and have the right (by purchase) to modify it to my personal needs. I am not asking to modify and redistribute the software but to make a few fundamental changes that suit my needs. When I purchase a copy of Windows I am able to change a Hugh amount of parameters to my needs that does not violate the proprietary software. Ford should allow some customization as this would better customer relations versus tearing them down by locking any changes. These systems are extremely complex and there is no way Ford engineers can anticipate what every individual wants, so why not let the ones who want to customize do it. That's all. Very simple.

Edited July 7, 2018 by tk2fast

[tk2fast]

I'manedgeowner thanks for info.

 

As far as I can tell on the FORScan forums there have been several attempts to make changes on some 2018 Ford vehicles to no avail. Also some state that Ford is starting to lock the mods, so changes cant be made without the FDRS system.

 

I am not saying I am right because I don't know for sure what is going on. That is why I posted here, hoping to get input from people in the know. I'm thinking about purchasing a new Edge, but want to change a few basic irritants. I'm not talking about making changes with FDRS but rather FORScan.

Edited July 7, 2018 by tk2fast

[jmr061]

All this and the crux that Forscan is an illegal software to begin with, based on reverse engineering IDS. A violation of the IDS copyright and user agreement.

 

Now if you were to use a software program that was developed from the ground up with without reverse engineering IDS...no issues but those software packages are limited and cost $$.

[tk2fast]

I get it... good point. Had no idea where Forscan came from. Thought open source. Won't be the first or last time I'm wrong!

Edited July 7, 2018 by tk2fast

[enigma-2]

And I do understand that it is proprietary software, but when I purchase a $45K vehicle I am also purchasing the software that runs that vehicle and have the right (by purchase) to modify it to my personal needs.

Ahhhhh NOPE! Nope, nope, nope, no. You do NOT own the software. Nor are you allowed to modify it, reverse engineer it or anthing else that would give you access to the modify the code.

 

It shiuld be spelled out in the owners manual. Page after page of "Thou Shan't Not's" .... In the Appendixes. It's their software, licensed to you, the legal owner, to use, not own. Just like any other software.

[tk2fast]

Okay I get it!! The software is licensed to me to use, so if I modify it for my own use, who is that hurting? When I pay 45K for a vehicle, I will do what I wan't to it without someone telling me it's wrong. Dealt with that crap all my life and at this point I really don't care.

 

Whats the difference if I take it to Ford or do it myself... Same result, but if Ford does it, then it's okay?

Edited July 7, 2018 by tk2fast

[enigma-2]

Nope again. The state DOT will tell you what you can and can't do to your car. So will the local cops. And don't forget the lawyers.

 

(Ok, I'm just yanking your chain).

 

Point is, you can do whatever you want to the software, unless you sell your mods, or make them public showing others how to do it, etc. But we don't have a "legal" right to do it.

 

A more interesting question is, what if you modify the car, then sell it with these mods, and later owner has a problem (or a fire or an accident traced back to the mods). Are you legal for what you did? The answer is yes.

 

From personal experience (unrelated). Quick version. Bought a hone years ago from the original owner. Sold it two years later as I found many of the owners bad wiring jobs and such. The family that bought it off me built a fire in the Ben Franklin stove and it caught the second story on fire. Turns out the previous owner did it himself and used single wall pipe. He ran it into the ceiling, turned horizontally for a few feet (actually it sloped downhill, providing a creosote trap). His insurance rebuilt the home and provided them housing while it was under construction. I sold it to him for $40k, insurance came after me for nearly $65k. During discovery, I told them that it was the previous owner that installed it. They then went after him and nailed him in court for full amount plus legal fees and court costs. (Just because he sold it and forgot about it, he was still libel because he did the work and never had it inspected. It ruined him).

[akirby]

What harm could you possibly do by directly modifying parameters in binary code? Pretty much everything and anything. You’re just hoping Forscan makes benign changes but honestly there is no way for you to know for sure you’re not messing something up. I agree we should have more option choices but you most certainly don’t have a right to do it. You could just as easily disable some safety feature or brick the entire system.

[tk2fast]

Thanks all for the input and many good points. There are just a few things I would want changed, if in fact needed on the 2019 Edge, and I would have the dealer change them as part of the "deal."

[akirby]

I doubt the 2019 Edge would be changing to the new system although it’s certainly possible. 2018 Expy was a brand new vehicle on a brand new platform.

[TheWizard]

The Supreme Court has ruled that modifying software for your own use is not a violation of the DMCA which has sections prohibiting reverse engineering and "hacking". The ruling came in a case about cell phones but would apply to any software where you own the device containing the licensed software. However, it does not address whether the software provider can take steps to make it difficult or impossible to make modifications as this would appear to do. So Ford is completely within their rights to take this step.

 

The comparison to Windows isn't quite accurate as Windows provides a documented interface (Control Panel, regedit, etc.) which allows you to change configurations. They do not allow you to make code changes or any other undocumented modifications. I agree that Ford really should offer expanded configuration options for customers but they are under no obligation to do so and if they can make money by locking it down, why wouldn't they? It's just business. We can vote with our feet by going elsewhere to buy vehicles if we don't agree (or as you suggest, make it part of the deal).

[todd92]

Coding a vehicle isn't hacking or rewriting software. Accessing a menu of vehicle parameters to make minor changes isn't either.

[NoDTMF]

So, If Ford were to sell a "consumer package" to replicate Forscan, would you buy it? (I probably would) Also what does this mean for the Tuner hardware like LMS, HP Tuners, SCT etc? It seems to me there is some reverse engineering going on there as well?

[TheWizard]

Coding a vehicle isn't hacking or rewriting software. Accessing a menu of vehicle parameters to make minor changes isn't either.

 

In the eyes of the law, reverse engineering software is the same whether it's on a computer, a mobile device, or a vehicle. Accessing a menu in the software to make changes is, of course, permissible because that is the intended function. But examining ("hacking into") the software in an effort to find and change undocumented settings is technically illegal under the DMCA.

[TheWizard]

So, If Ford were to sell a "consumer package" to replicate Forscan, would you buy it? (I probably would) Also what does this mean for the Tuner hardware like LMS, HP Tuners, SCT etc? It seems to me there is some reverse engineering going on there as well?

 

Actually not really... the OBD II interface is well documented and mandated by law. It was done that way in order to prevent OEMs from eliminating independent repair shops by having secret and proprietary diagnostic and maintenance interfaces. Tunes are just an extension of that capability. But you will notice that some manufacturers (especially Chrysler) go to great lengths to make it difficult to make changes.

[jmr061]

As far as tuner's go some work directly with the OEMs....LIvernois comes to mind.

 

As far as a consumer package goes anyone can buy IDS...license is $850/year and requires the use of the VCM2. This also give you access to FDRS.

[tk2fast]

I thought this was interesting from Ford. This lists the fees to use Fords software packages. Not sure if available to consumers.

 

365 day IDS/FDRS Software License = $849.00 per license

30 day IDS/FDRS Software License = $299.00 per license

2 day IDS/FDRS Software License = $149.00 per license

365 day FJDS/FDRS Software License = $849.95 per license

30 day FJDS/FDRS Software License = $149.95 per license

2 day FJDS/FDRS Software License = $49.95 per license

Edited July 8, 2018 by tk2fast

[I'manedgeowner]

I have a feeling some apples and oranges are getting mixed up here but first,

 

When J2534 is mentioned as not compatible that shouldn't be surprising. It's too old and I imagine where today's protocols might support it, it's an anomaly. Did Ford even install the port on any OBD2 PCM's? It's like some old MS Office Suites I have that don't work on today's computers. I can still use basic functions but the higher functions like embedding Excel or Access files in to a word document the computer locks up. A PCM is nothing but higher functions.

 

PCM's or EEC's\ECU's have a number of different protocols. Some belong to the manufacturer and some are mandated by law and from what I've read, come from a collaboration between SAE and the likes of NTSB, Dept. of Transportation, FBI and Homeland Security. OBD2 is not proprietary though. This is true regardless of the protocol used. Look this up if you like but we can thank the EU for this. They mandated OBD2 to be open source so US manufacturers had to comply or quit selling in the EU. The other option was a completely different system for EU sales which wasn't feasible. Also anyone that is familiar with Europe you're aware of how car tuning their is a cottage industry unlike here in the US. They've been at it much longer and it's not unusual to see a Frankenstein car there like a Ford Escort with an Audi Quatro suspension and a Porsche 911 engine powering it. Trying to do this in the US would be a nightmare and good luck trying to find someone to do this for you. If you did find someone like Haltech to do this for you it would probably cost you half the price of a new 911.

 

As somebody also said, just because you can make changes to OBD2 doesn't necessarily make what you do legal. CFR emission regulations are a minimum that must be met for any street legal vehicle but that doesn't prevent the states from mandating stricter standards. New York and California come to mind. Some states like Ohio have different standards by region within the state. That must drive some dealers to pulling their hair out with what I understand can happen with cars that are sold across regions or if a customer moves between regions.

 

Also from what I've read there are some extensive changes coming to vehicle electronics because of autonomous driving plans. The FBI, NTSB and Homeland Security has been given demonstrations of how the current system can be hacked and vehicles can be remotely controlled. Their concern with this is terrorism. I also read where one of the demonstrations came from a group of high school kids. We have kids taking guns to schools now so what would they do with this ability? What's the angry kid that's been dumped by his girl going to do? From experience I can verify that teenagers don't always think things through.

 

Bottom line, if it isn't OBD2 related you don't have inherent rights to any access and you sign off to that when you sign for the car and if you buy a used car you buy that signature with it.

[I'manedgeowner]

tk2fast,

 

Actually I'm real happy to read this price list. My IDS expired at the end of June and I need to renew. Last year I found a place to buy a discounted subscription at $1,200. Normal price through Rotunda was $1,400 or $1,500. FDRS is also suppose to be more powerful than IDS.

 

I hope FDRS supports the PCM's from Ford Performance which IDS didn't. What anyone could do with systems like the AiM electronic steering was very limited.

Edited July 8, 2018 by I'manedgeowner

[tk2fast]

Here is a link where I got that pricing from:

 

https://www.fordtechservice.dealerconnection.com/VDIRS/wds/vcm_retail_renewal_Latest.asp

[enigma-2]

That's just the software. How much more for the hardware?

[akirby]

Coding a vehicle isn't hacking or rewriting software. Accessing a menu of vehicle parameters to make minor changes isn't either.

Sure it is - youre changing bits in the software. Doesnt matter where those bits are and whether theyre flags (options) or code.

 

Theyre not going to do anything about it if youre just doing it on your own except possibly deny a warranty claim if something goes wrong.

 

But I guarantee you this move isnt about stopping Forscan mods - it will make it easier for Ford to provide IDS updates and do less troubleshooting on IDS problems due to the dealers hardware.

Edited July 8, 2018 by akirby