2013 3.5 motor is junk??

[jasonn]

Got a 2013 that of course just turned 104,000. Ran fine, but went to pass someone and it started chugging, missing, etc. Check engine was flashing, Got it home and it seemed fine but had a random missfire code. Cleared code. I knew plugs were probably original (we bought used). So I bought plugs. On the way back, check engine back on. Got home and could hear a very audible rattle coming from front of engine. Catalytic out of range on bank one and two. Changed oil and plugs. Cleared codes Noise seemed to get better, no more missing. Wife took to work and it died on the road. I got there and started up. i could keep running but only by keeping foot on gas a bit. Ford dealer was about 2 blocks. Got it there. They haven't finished diagnosing, but said seemed to have water in oil. And computer said low compression in three cylinders. Doesn't sound good. Just wondering how many of these engines go bad?? My thinking is something to do with the timing chains. Skip a tooth? Out of time bleeding compression? Where is the water coming from? Why the catalytics go bad same time?? Don't know what to do now if engine is bad. I guess replace. Sucks!!

[akirby]

Water pump. It's internal to the engine.

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

Probably best to replace with a used low mileage engine. The water pump is driven by the timing chain, so likely the timing chain was toast as well.

 

I would immediately flush the coolant on the "new" engine. I think the recommended 105K interval for 1st change is just way too long. The old 5/60 or Special Operating Conditions schedule is better in this case.

[enigma-2]

Could also be a blown head gasket; compression drops on the cylinders blown, and coolant leaks in.

 

It's possible to have a new gasket installed if there's not too much damage in the bearings from the watered-down oil. They can actually take a lot of abuse. Depends on how much water got into the oil.

 

Had this problem years ago, spent around $800 and the car ran fine for couple of years until I sold it.

[macbwt]

The failure is most likely the water pump shaft bearing failure which is almost always the case. I have two water pumps from 2 generations of edge's and both have suffered from shaft bearing failure. Once the bearing fails it allows water to leak into the oil pan. I have also been working on some other possible signs of failure in theory that may be a way to predetermine failure also. Several water pumps including one I have suffer from broken plastic pump fins. I have one Edge that is running warm but not overheating and my theory is it has broken pump fins which cause lack of water movement. The Edge is running higher than normal 208 Degrees at highway speed compared to the other Edge I have that runs 194 at highway speeds. Working on other members to scan their coolant temps to verify this process and sign of possible pending failure.

 

I will be water jet cutting and dissecting two water pumps on the 7th of April and present a video showing the actual failure points and damages either at bearing, races or seals. Did coolant leak into the bearing seal and cause the bearing to fail? I think this is the most likely cause.

[enigma-2]

Your probably right. I was keying off having water in the oil 'and' low compression in couple of cylinders.

 

Didn't think a blown seal on the water pump could cause low compression. That and he has a 2013. Seems I read somewhere that ware pump failures were more prone on 07-08 3.5l. Sy have been a TSB which only covered those years, but nonetheless all other years are still vulnerable.

 

As for why it didn't want to continue to run, maybe the low compression played a factor?

 

As for your Edge running hot, I would imagine you would want to rule out the thermostat first. Never replaced one on the 3.5l, is it easy to change or a pita like everything else?

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

I think you make a good case enigma, just wanted to add that the difference in generations issue ... isn't. Further details to be revealed by macbwt.

[jasonn]

Well u r correct. Water pump failure. Which turns into complete engine failure! What an absolute shit design Over 6000 for a used engine. Over 8 for a remaned. Doing some googling looks like these motors r a ticking time bomb. Looks like this design is in most new ford engines. Been a ford man all my life but this may change my mind.

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

You are looking at a used engine with warranty, or a really low mileage engine? 6K seems too high, but prices could have gone up ...

 

A site that may help locate

http://www.car-part.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi

 

The 3.5 (VCT, not Ti-VCT) was used in many model lines, but you would likely have to swap all electronic components from the Edge to the "new" engine, as it is hard to tell exactly what might be different if you pick from non-Edge vehicles.

[macbwt]

Design is used in many other engines. Failures of select numbers cause the ones that have the failure to complain the most. I personally have accumulated over 560K miles on three Ford Edge's of two different generations and not one water pump failure. not sure if yearly coolant changes and very frequent oil changes are helping but I am sticking with what has worked for me.

 

 

Granted if my pump failed I would feel the same way, but I know in the back of my mind that it is a possibility and am in a way prepared for it.

 

I have two water pumps from two different generations of 3.5 that have failed. Given time the 2nd gen 2015 plus 3.5 will eventually suffer from the same failures. It is a mechanical failure.

 

Low cost used engines are available plus installation I have seen this done for 3-4K dollars. Just replace the used engine timing chain guides and water pump before installing the engine.

 

I may also note that water in the engine will wash the cylinders of oil and kill compression. The heat then generated will melt the bearing and the transferred friction and heat will soften the rods and pistons essentially deforming them leading to a complete failure.

 

Well u r correct. Water pump failure. Which turns into complete engine failure! What an absolute shit design Over 6000 for a used engine. Over 8 for a remaned. Doing some googling looks like these motors r a ticking time bomb. Looks like this design is in most new ford engines. Been a ford man all my life but this may change my mind.

[chefduane]

It always seems that when someone has a catastrophic failure (meaning $$$ to fix), it is due to a "shit design." Ford has had multiple thousands of these engines that run for multiple thousands of miles (it did go 104k miles, right?) with no major issues such as yours. Sorry, but a "shit design" just doesn't hang around for that long.

 

I ran a Gen2 Explorer 4.0 SOHC for 213k miles and it ran like a top the day I sold it. And there are many folks over in the Explorer Forum that have gotten over 250k+ on the G2 4.0 SOHC. But every time one fails - mostly due to a timing chain guide failure - at high mileage, it is claimed that the 4.0L SOHC is a "crap design", "POS" engine. Always makes me chuckle.

 

I'm sorry that you have had a water pump failure resulting in a complete engine failure. And I'm sorry that it will probably cost big money to fix it. And I'm also sorry that you might let this cause you to re-think your loyalty to Ford products. But saying it is due to bad design is simply not borne out by the facts. After all, one bad apple don't spoil the whole bunch through. Good Luck with whatever you decide to do.

Edited March 24, 2017 by chefduane

[freebird]

$1500 to replace a $100 part that can take out an entire engine is, IMHO, a "shit design." The WP is easy and cheap to change in my Honda and Toyota as part of "preventative maintenance" lessening the chance of further damage from a failure.

 

macbwt, what coolant do you use?

[akirby]

I would have to agree that the water pump location is not ideal, is way more expensive to replace and that a failure can easily take out the entire engine. But I'm sure they had a good reason to do it that way.

[Waldo]

But what are the failure rates on the Honda and Toyota water pumps? Is using a better stronger longer lasting more efficient part that hardly ever fails - but when it does fail causes expensive repairs - a better design than one that uses a cheap weak part that is easy to change?

 

Or in other words, which is really a better design? One that requires 100% of people to replace it for $100 or one that requires 5% of people to replace it for $1000?

[akirby]

Depends on whether you're in the 5%.

[chefduane]

Approximately 1.1m of the Ford 2007-2014 CD3 platform have been sold. The CD3 platform includes the Edge, Fusion, Mazda CX-9, and G1&2 Mazda 6, and Lincoln MKX (Wikipedia). There is no source (at least that I can find) that tracks water pump failures that necessitate engine replacement/repair of the above mentioned models. However, if the CD3 platform was a truly a 'shit design' would we not hear more about numerous water pump/engine failures? Would we not hear about numerous recalls for that specific design flaw? Would the newsgroups not be flooded with multiple recollections of this particular failure? Would not some lawyer have already generated a class action suit to sue for the supposed victims of this obvious design flaw? We simply do not see any of these things. Granted, when the failure occurs and results in engine replacement/repair the aggrieved party does have an argument for lamenting the expense incurred (and rightly so), but its not due to a design flaw.

 

The Ford Pinto ('71-'80) had a design flaw in its fuel tank location. That resulted the largest automobile recall up to that time, numerous lawsuits, and was covered expensively in the press. It is still covered in undergrad law studies regarding tort issues, business ethics, and cost/benefit analyses. Many feel Ford still has a black eye on the issue. That WAS a shit design.

 

The CD3 platform generates none of these "design flaw" issues.

 

In objective observation the manufacture numbers, numbers still on the road, and the many high mileage CD3's simply do not lead a logical person to any design issue. Agreed, it is a PITA when it happens and a real hit in the pocket book. But numerical analysis does not lead one to a coherent objective deduction of a design flaw.

 

I understand if someone has the opinion that the CD3 water pump is a 'shit design' but opinions are subjective and emotional, and when faced with a $5k engine bill I feel your pain. Good Luck with whatever course of action is taken.

Edited March 24, 2017 by chefduane

[akirby]

Actually it's not a CD3 issue - the engine is used in multiple platforms. But your point is correct - this only affects a tiny fraction of engines. It's terrible when it does happen but it isn't a widespread problem.

[PaulSchott]

As one of the unfortunate water pump repair recipient's I do not consider this a crap design, just an expensive to repair design. It did last 114,000 miles.

There are signs.

1. The slight odor of antifreeze in a closed garage for just a second. (must be my imagination)

2. About a week before the leaking started I noticed a slight rattle in the front of the engine (must be the belt tensioner)

3. Damp spot on the garage floor. (only noticed because I needed to move my snow blower)

4. A few drops of juice on the ground. (Oh shit, it tastes like antifreeze)

Lucky nothing got into the oil.

Pay attention, THERE ARE SIGNS and don't drive it if you can avoid it.

I had a 98 24V Contour with the Duratek engine. Not the same but similar engines. The water pump was driven off one of the cam shafts through a belt. The plastic impeller was a crap design but it took about an hour to change the pump and belt. This was a nice compact design and probably could have been used on the 3.5.

Oh well, I should be good for the next 100,000 miles.

Edited March 24, 2017 by PaulSchott

[IWRBB]

The water pump is inside the timing cover for packaging into FWD platforms. Upside is it generally lasts much longer than an external setup since it's not on the front engine accessory drive (FEAD), which is much easier on the bearings and seals. It's also protected from moisture and dirt inside the cover. Downside is, well, it's pretty obvious.

 

What I'd love to see is how it weeps out of the cover and onto the ground as Paul mentioned. Is there an opening in the cover or what? Maybe someone getting their fixed could post some pics of where it would leak out so that area could be visually inspected while under the vechicle.

[macbwt]

Watch this video I go over the water pumps from two failed Edges of two different gens. I plan on water jet cutting them the first week of april and dissection and evaluation of failures in a future video.

[Buuls eye]

Ya, it is.

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

As long as you change the coolant within the next 60K!

 

Oh well, I should be good for the next 100,000 miles.

 

 

[freebird]

In my case I've put 228,000+126,000+297,000=720,000 miles between 2 Toyotas and 1 Honda. The Honda got the WP changed as part of the 100,000 service. No WP on the van that had 228000 when sold and the truck, still going at 297000 miles, got a new WP at 195,000 just as part of preventative maintenance when the timing belt was replaced.

 

So, no failures. Anyone have a 3.5L engine that the WP made it to 195,000 miles?

 

And the replacement cost is not $1000 - cheapest I have heard is $1500.

 

But what are the failure rates on the Honda and Toyota water pumps? Is using a better stronger longer lasting more efficient part that hardly ever fails - but when it does fail causes expensive repairs - a better design than one that uses a cheap weak part that is easy to change?

 

Or in other words, which is really a better design? One that requires 100% of people to replace it for $100 or one that requires 5% of people to replace it for $1000?

[macbwt]

My 2008 Edge had over 285,000 documented miles on it and the OEM water pump was still pumping away. My 2011 has 186,000 miles and the water pump is working as designed with no issues.

 

I will add no water pumps had to be replaced in my mileage totals, unlike the ones you have noted below. Thus this makes the water pumps pretty reliable in comparison.

 

 

In my case I've put 228,000+126,000+297,000=720,000 miles between 2 Toyotas and 1 Honda. The Honda got the WP changed as part of the 100,000 service. No WP on the van that had 228000 when sold and the truck, still going at 297000 miles, got a new WP at 195,000 just as part of preventative maintenance when the timing belt was replaced.

 

So, no failures. Anyone have a 3.5L engine that the WP made it to 195,000 miles?

 

And the replacement cost is not $1000 - cheapest I have heard is $1500.

 

Edited March 26, 2017 by macbwt

[Waldo]

In my case I've put 228,000+126,000+297,000=720,000 miles between 2 Toyotas and 1 Honda. The Honda got the WP changed as part of the 100,000 service. No WP on the van that had 228000 when sold and the truck, still going at 297000 miles, got a new WP at 195,000 just as part of preventative maintenance when the timing belt was replaced.

 

So, no failures. Anyone have a 3.5L engine that the WP made it to 195,000 miles?

 

And the replacement cost is not $1000 - cheapest I have heard is $1500.

 

 

I saw someone on the Flex forum do the entire job on his own including updating the chain and cam sprockets and all that stuff to the 2011+ design for $800 in parts. So if we're going to say the Honda/Toyota is a $100 job for a DIYer we need to compare apples to apples.

 

But really the point is none of us really know what the failure rate of the Ford 3.5 water pumps really is. Obviously when it does fail it's going to make people so upset that they seek out ways to share their frustration on social media, but that really doesn't paint an accurate picture of the true failure rates.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Waldo