What grade of fuel are you using? (2.7L EcoBoost)

[Burrcold]

I'll be picking my '16 Sport up in just a few weeks and would like to hear what fuel type everyone is using (pros/cons). Almost every car I've owned in the past 15 years has required premium so it would very nice to finally use regular with little to not compromise (although I'm thinking there will be). Thanks!

[akirby]

You don't need to use premium. Try a tank on each and decide for yourself. I don't think you'll notice the difference in everyday driving.

[junehhan]

The most important thing is that you stick with a top tier fuel. However premium is required to get the advertised level of performance. Motortrend tested a second Edge Sport which they ran on only 87 octane and found it to be half a second slower to both 60 mph and the 1/4 mile.

 

I bought a performance car and have no plans to get cheap on the gas. Never know when you might run into a kid driving a Civic with a fart can that needs to be humbled.

[dustys318]

E30

[junehhan]

Why would you want to use a fuel that Ford specifically does not recommend(E15 is maximum) knowing that you are jeopardizing your warranty on the powertrain potentially? Especially when you consider the fuel dilution issue that plagues ALL GTDI and GDI engines, I would find that worrisome unless you are performing oil analysis' at regular intervals. Are you running a tune?

[akirby]

Running E30 is dangerous unless it's a flex fuel capable engine that can run on E-85.

 

It will eat the fuel lines and other components. There is a reason they cap it at E-15.

[TheWizard]

The most important thing is that you stick with a top tier fuel. However premium is required to get the advertised level of performance. Motortrend tested a second Edge Sport which they ran on only 87 octane and found it to be half a second slower to both 60 mph and the 1/4 mile.

 

I bought a performance car and have no plans to get cheap on the gas. Never know when you might run into a kid driving a Civic with a fart can that needs to be humbled.

 

Actually, they were comparing a 2015 to a 2016 (the 2015 on premium and the 2016 on regular). There are other differences between the models that probably accounted more for the difference than the fuel - especially that the 2016 was 109 pounds heavier. They mention in the article that there is no difference in peak torque and for horsepower the "drop is marginal". Since there is no more energy in higher octane fuel, the engine performance only improves because of the higher octane's resistance to knock allowing advancing of the ignition timing somewhat but that's still fairly conservative in street vehicles and doesn't make a significant difference... certainly not as much as the 30% higher cost per gallon.

 

And I guess the definition of a "performance car" must be relative to other vehicles in the same class. The Edge Sport is certainly a better performer than most other CUVs but not so much compared to the car market. For example, my naturally aspirated V6 Mustang does the quarter mile about a second faster and yet I don't consider it a performance car by any means. The Mustang GT (and Camaro SS, Challenger SRT8, Corvette, ...) simply blows us both away.

[Burrcold]

I fill up my 2016 Mazda CX-9 with premium as well because of the hp different with that vehicle (I like that Mazda gives you the hp number change with each incremental tier in fuel type). So to make things easier I've stuck with premium on the Edge Sport (wife now thinks both require premium lol).

[TheWizard]

I'm curious... what does Mazda list as the horsepower for each grade of fuel? The 5.0 Mustang goes from 408 on 87 octane to 420 on 91+ octane - a difference of just 3% at a cost of 30% per gallon. That 3% gain is peak horsepower at 6500 RPM. The gain at lower engine speed is minuscule.

[Burrcold]

I'm curious... what does Mazda list as the horsepower for each grade of fuel? The 5.0 Mustang goes from 408 on 87 octane to 420 on 91+ octane - a difference of just 3% at a cost of 30% per gallon. That 3% gain is peak horsepower at 6500 RPM. The gain at lower engine speed is minuscule.

It gets 310 lb/tq at any octane which is nice since peak torque comes on at only 2000 rpm. Hp rating goes from 227 on 87 octane up to 250 on 91+. It's definitely a noticeable increase higher in the rev range as the torque begins to fall off.

[akirby]

Higher octane and advanced timing extends peak torque higher in the RPM range which results in more HP.

[dustys318]

Ethanol eats up old fuel systems, newer cars don't have those issues, I'm not running pure E85 anyways. I had been running E30 mix in my big turbo Fiesta ST for 3 years having over 110k miles, NEVER had an issue, still hitting 303whp when I traded it for my Edge Sport (the aux fueling was keeping the valves clean too). I plan on doing same to this Sport, hopefully turbo companies will develop better flowing (more volume) turbos for our 2.7. With the CGI block, better turbos, cometic head gaskets, ARP head studs we should be able to work to 30-35 PSI before needing better rods or pistons (I was doing 28 in the Fiesta). I can see an easy 450-475whp in a DD... it's going to be fun

[enigma-2]

Q. It's a well know fact that we loose mpg using Ethanol, does our cars loose hp as well?

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

Since ethanol is 2/3 as energy dense as gasoline, you have to pump more of it to get the same output from the engine. So yes there is some minor loss of power along with mpg. This is a rather simplistic view, because ethanol by itself has an octane rating of 104. E10 helps improve the burn rate of gaoline, so it kinda makes up for energy density loss. But the real benefits of ethanol in power come after you cross the E15 threshold. More timing advance AND less knock retard. Most obvious, again, at higher speeds and rpm ranges. And more benefits to forced induction engines, where knock retard is all-important.

 

This of course assumes your fuel system components are ethanol resistant and the fuel pump's pumping capacity is increased to accommodate. MPG will drop, of course, but the (generally) lower cost of E at the pump helps alleviate some of the pain to the wallet.

 

http://www.ethanolproducer.com/articles/8858/octane-whats-in-your-fuel

 

Ford On Board
Increasing fuel economy standards for vehicles will require auto manufacturers to design smaller, more efficient engines that continue to satisfy the consumer’s desire for power. Some automakers have already begun introducing these types of engines into the market, the most well-known being General Motors Co.’s Ecotec engine and Ford Motor Co.’s Ecoboost engine. High-octane fuels have been shown to be the most effective fuel for these types of engines, and some experts have suggested that higher octane gasoline could be beneficial in existing engines as well. Ford researchers noted in a March article in the scientific journal Fuel, that while more research is needed to quantify and optimize the costs and benefits, “substantial societal benefits” may be realized by capitalizing on ethanol’s high-octane rating.

In the paper, titled “High octane number ethanol-gasoline blends: Quantifying the potential benefits in the United States,” the Ford researchers, led by Jim Anderson, examine the critical role octane rating plays in the design, operation, efficiency and emissions of spark-ignited engines. The researchers state that higher minimum octane ratings would enable higher compression ratios in future vehicles, improving efficiency, and benefit all spark-ignited engines and hybrid vehicles. “Incorporating ethanol with its inherent high-octane rating is one opportunity to enable an increase in the minimum octane rating for regular-grade fuel,” they said.

Anderson and his colleagues point out that despite increasing blending of ethanol into the nation’s gasoline, the octane ratings of regular gasoline have remained unchanged for 40 years. The researchers attribute this lack of octane increase to petroleum companies modifying their base fuels to take full advantage of ethanol’s octane at a 10 percent blend. In the paper, Anderson’s group says that even if ethanol content is increased, the oil industry can be expected to continue to reduce the octane ratings of its blend stocks so that the final product meets minimum octane requirements, unless government policies raise the minimum octane rating. And, because automakers design the vast majority of their vehicles to operate on the minimum octane rating, the opportunity to increase vehicle efficiencies through the use of higher octane gasoline is limited. “If vehicle manufacturers knew with certainty that the minimum octane rating of fuel would increase at a known future date and remain at these levels, it would be possible to provide future engines that are designed with higher [compression ratios] and operate with correspondingly higher thermal efficiencies, which could also provide the potential for engine downsizing and turbocharging to further improve fuel economy,” the researchers said.

Interestingly, the researchers note that the “logical first step” towards improving the nation’s octane rating would be to eliminate the use of 85 octane fuel in high altitude regions and establish a nationwide minimum octane rating. “This relatively simple change would affect a very small fraction of fuel produced, but would have an immediate efficiency benefit for vehicles using such fuel in those areas of the country, and would allow more efficient future use of nearly all fuel used by the [light-duty vehicle] fleet in the U.S.,” the researchers wrote.

Anderson and other Ford researchers also contributed to a paper recently published by global automotive engineering association SAE International that details research funded by ICM Inc. and conducted by AVL Powertrain Engineering Inc. to examine several aspects of increased ethanol blends as related to vehicle fuel systems.

The paper, titled “Effect of Heat of Vaporization, Chemical Octane, and Sensitivity on Knock Limit for Ethanol-Gasoline Blends,” was co-authored by experts at AVL, Ford, BP Products North America Inc., Deere & Co., and Steve Vander Griend, head of research and development of ethanol engines at ICM. AVL researchers tested a number of ethanol blends during the study, ranging from E0 to E98, and found that when ethanol content is increased, the knock-limited performance and the thermal efficiency of engines significantly increases, particularly in turbocharged direct-injection engines. Vander Griend says the most exciting part of the study is that it demonstrates ethanol’s full value as a fuel. “There is value beyond E10 by simply adding ethanol,” he says. “When you give more octane via ethanol, you increase the range of efficiency.” Auto manufacturers still need to determine what their ideal octane rating will be before the ethanol industry can begin targeting a specific blending ratio, but based on current and previous research data, Vander Griend says he believes E30 could be “a great starting point” because it offers the increased cooling effect desired for fuel efficient engines and a research octane number, or RON, of about 100. The Ford researchers stop short of identifying an optimal ethanol blend in their paper, but note that large increases in octane could be possible by blending 10 to 20 percent more ethanol into the 10 percent ethanol blends currently on the market.

[dustys318]

Yes, I'm running the LMS 93 aggressive tune using E30 (because we only have 91 junk here). Waiting for Cobb to come out with their tuner so I can get +Tune (Adam) to do his magic... and yes, just using ethanol you do use more fuel when NOT tuned for it but I am still getting the same mileage with the aggressive tune and E30 as I did prior to tuning and just using 91...

[TheWizard]

That Ford On Board quote is an interesting analysis but in some ways incomplete. Yes, increasing ethanol content will increase octane allowing higher compression (because there is a limit to ignition timing advance effectiveness) and therefore more efficient engine design. However, there would have to be other changes as well. As mentioned, ethanol is less energy dense than gasoline so it inherently produces lower mileage. Gains in engine efficiency would have to be sufficient to overcome that deficit or else the government would have to modify CAFE regulations to allow lower mileage ratings based on the fact that the use of fossil fuels would still decrease with a higher percentage of ethanol. And the cost of the fuel would have to be lower enough to make consumers put up with more frequent fill-ups.

 

Then you have other practical issues. Ethanol blends are more difficult to ship and store due to being more corrosive and hygroscopic. Gas stations that aren't busy and don't turn over their inventory frequently will have significant problems with moisture in their fuel. And if they have to choose between E10 and E30 because they don't have enough underground tanks to carry both, most will choose E10 because it's a much larger market. So the propagation of higher ethanol blends (and the vehicles that use them) will be slowed due to lack of selling facilities.

Edited February 28, 2017 by TheWizard

[dustys318]

It would be nice if Ford had the option to run ethanol blends in the ecoboost, it really wakes up the platform... the wizard is correct about the logistics issues... but there are some stations that have E blends already at the pump...

 

Running E30 without a tune you are doing nothing...

Edited February 28, 2017 by dustys318

[TheWizard]

<deleted>

Edited February 28, 2017 by TheWizard

[dustys318]

I foresee Ford doing the same DI and port injection to the 2.7 in the future as they have with the new 3.5. Running higher boost (think diesel) with both injection systems like the newer 3.5 can get this CGI block 2.7 to 400hp easily... Ford is on to something with the CGI block for gas turbo engines...

[junehhan]

Ford is probably never going to allow for ethanol blends above E15 in their Ecoboosts because of a very important issue that especially plagues people who do lots of short trips. That issue is fuel dilution. You get enough of it into the oil and it destroys its ability to properly keep certain components like turbo bearings from getting destroyed. The other issues I see without a dedicated E30 tune is that you are very likely running lean unless the tune has the proper calibrations. Running lean can be very dangerous in a tuned forced induction engine. Once you get a proper E30 tune, I would then be worried about the stock pump and injectors.

[dustys318]

http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68570

 

Big things are coming for this 2.7

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

We have a few 2013+ SHOs running with the stock fuel pump on E blends up to E30. Supposedly the specs on the system conform to E85 usage, so there should be no degradation. The hope is that the system on the Edge is also E85 compliant, so E blending would not be an issue, but one would have to look through Ford's published documentation for that.

 

Livernois has released an upgraded HPFP for the F150 3.5, one for the SHO is up next. Enough demand needs to be there for the Edge, then they would begin working on that, expect cost to be around 1,600$ and that the appearance cover may not fit afterwards.

https://www.livernoismotorsports.com/product/LPP501117

[Nick Halstead]

http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68570

 

Big things are coming for this 2.7

It's great till you get to the whooping $1,850. price tag!

[Nick Halstead]

and the RTR is only supported by SCT tunes not Cobb. That's a lot of money for a vehicle that has ZERO support.

[dustys318]

Yeah, we're going to have to wait until the F150 and Fusion Sport guys get rolling with good support before we get some trickle down tech. And as far as the $1800+ price tag goes it is safer, cheaper and more reliable than to get meth (constant maint, and subject to failure that may cause catastrophic engine failure - leaking nozzles is an example or clogged nozzles causing a lean condition) or getting aux fueling (fuel match from cylinder to cylinder isn't possible without port injection - and you'll be beyond $1800 after a separate tuning solution) but changing the fuel pump, turbos and intercooler then tuning is like the factory system.

 

Having to run E30 fuel is usually to succumb a heat issue and/or safety reasons - pushing turbos out of their efficiency range needing higher octane for detonation (all out racing is different).
Changing turbos for more FLOW without having to make fuel mixes is ideal, put in pump 91/93 gas and go.

Changing fuel pump for more FLOW without having to stress the system is ideal, put in pump 91/93 gas and go.

Changing the intercooler for more FLOW without having heat soak or the need for meth injection is ideal, put in pump 91/93 gas and go.

 

Over all thinking:

$2000 for fuel pump upgrade

$3000 for upgraded turbos

$1500 for upgraded intercooler system (boost hoses, clamps, ect)

$500 for tuner

$300-500 for dyno/live driving tune (only need one permanent solution but Adam probably still does "tunes for life")

$??? for quality fluids

Roughly $7500 for a DD, reliable 500awhp on pump 91/93, I'm good with that... (paid $37800 in San Antonio, TX for my Edge Sport, then add $7500 to get to $45300 overall or 500awhp? What SUV can you buy new that has 600 crank hp for under $50k?

 

I've spent about $7000 to get 303whp to the ground out of my Fiesta ST (did SCCA - HS class). The complex fueling (aux fueling - E30 blends), turbo, clutch/flywheel, LSD, intercooler, blah-blah is expensive and a pain to maintain, I've done it before (SVO, HX35 turbo, E85, 400hp)(SRT4, big turbo, E85, 500hp), I'm done with extensive changes, forged this and that, partial block fills, ect. Running the 93 aggressive tune with E30 knowing Ford over-fuels in WOT for safety is just temp until Adam gets this pump all sorted out and testing is completed on the Fusion Sport (he has an F150 2.7 and plans on 500whp too - it's why I'm confident) and people are consistently happy before I pull the trigger this time...