Synthetic or not Synthetic---Tis the question

[Grey]

Oops, sorry, I presumed anyone interested had been following the ongoing discussion re: synthetics in fresh engines. As has been explained elsewhere, engines that come with full synthetic oil from the factory have a different honing process on the cylinder walls than our engines.

 

I have personal work experience with Ford Engineering and have offered their recommendations, only to have them challenged by corner mechanics, so I posted when I saw the Govt. study.

 

 

So, regardless of what GM says for the Corvette, it is not OK to put full synthetic oil in our vehicles before 3,000 miles. :shades:

[solas989]

Ok...hypothetical question.

 

If one swaps out the 5w20 Motorcraft oil with 5w20 Motorcraft oil at 1000 miles (not 3000), what is the harm? It is the same oil with the same properties and should not affect ring setting properly - correct? It is the same oil properties it came with from the factory fill right?

 

Second, according to Fords WSS-M2C930-A spec, isnt the "HTHS Viscosity, mPa-sec @ 150°C & 106 1/sec (ASTM D 4683 or CEC L-36T-84)" spec we want to look at - which relates to ring/bearing wear? HTHS = High Temperature/High Shear.

 

Ford specs it at a MINIMUM 2.6

 

If I am assuming incorrectly, please explain why. I am only trying to make heads or tails of the plethora of information available with no real solid proof.

 

Thanks

[bbf2530]

Ok...hypothetical question.

 

If one swaps out the 5w20 Motorcraft oil with 5w20 Motorcraft oil at 1000 miles (not 3000), what is the harm? It is the same oil with the same properties and should not affect ring setting properly - correct? It is the same oil properties it came with from the factory fill right?

 

Second, according to Fords WSS-M2C930-A spec, isnt the "HTHS Viscosity, mPa-sec @ 150°C & 106 1/sec (ASTM D 4683 or CEC L-36T-84)" spec we want to look at - which relates to ring/bearing wear? HTHS = High Temperature/High Shear.

 

Ford specs it at a MINIMUM 2.6

 

If I am assuming incorrectly, please explain why. I am only trying to make heads or tails of the plethora of information available with no real solid proof.

 

Thanks

 

Hi solas. :D To answer the first part of your question: The Motorcraft oil which comes in your engine from the factory is a Semi-Synthetic oil. It is not a Full-Synthetic oil. Therefore, you can replace it (Motorcraft Semi-Synthetic) at 1,000 miles, 500 miles, or before break-in every 100 miles if you wish (intentional exaggeration), with the same Motorcraft Semi-Synthetic (or equivalent) oil. Ford just specifies, in our Owner Manuals, not to use "Friction Modifiers" in the engine before the break-in period is over. I would define that as meaning anything that has a lower friction coefficient than the Motorcraft Semi-Synthetic specs. I would include Full-Synthetic oil in that "Friction Modifier" category. Therefore, I would state that you should not put a Full-Synthetic Oil in your engine before it is broken in. It may be just my way of thinking, but it seems like common sense to me, and does not necessitate any studies (I am not trying to be a wise guy, just trying to keep it light).

 

The next part here is just my personal opinion having to do with this entire subject (not your question in particular). Some of us seem to want to grossly over-think this entire oil change/interval question. Some of us want to change it sooner than recommended. Others of us want to extend our changes well past the recommendation. Both sides can come up with a plethora of studies and/or personal experience/anecdotes to back their version of what should be done. And as often seems to happen on the "Internet" some people on both sides seem to be very wrapped up in proving to everyone that they are the right side to be on (again, not directed at anyone here in particular, just a general statement).

 

Then there are those who are in the middle that say "Why not follow the instructions of the people who build the vehicle"? It would certainly be the safe thing to do, at least while under warranty. Sure, we need to use some common sense, check the condition of the oil ourselves regularly and change it sooner if need be. It just seems to me that the semi-constant bickering (not you or anyone in particular, of course) back and forth is silly. The break down properties of modern automotive oils can be quantified and accurately predicted. The Automakers have already done the studies and made their recommendations, so why not take their advice. After all, they did manufacture the car. And follow the advice of the Manufacturer who built your car, not another car. The other Manufacturer is not going to honor your Warranty.

 

And if someone does not want to take Fords advice, I say more power to you. If you wish to change your oil every 3,000 miles (or pick any other random number below 7,500), go ahead. If you want to change your oil every 15,000 miles (or pick any random number above 7,500 miles), go ahead. It is your car, so I respect your right to do as you like.

 

Anyway, when all the debating is said and done, it states in our Owners Manual no "Friction Modifiers" until break-in is complete. So in my opinion, I would not use a Full Synthetic until the first recommended oil change (I follow the 6 month/7,500 mile recommendation). So in my case, 7,500 miles. If you plan on performing your first oil change before then, I would wait until at least 3,000 miles.

 

Just to make it clear one more time: I am not trying to change anyone else's mind about what they do with their own cars, only assist those who are trying to "make heads or tails of the plethora" of conflicting information out there.

 

Just my opinion folks, and I stated it without insulting anyone. So if you disagree with me, please do so without insulting me, my heritage or my dog.

 

Good luck. :beerchug:

 

PS - Just wanted to add that I am a realist and not as dumb as I look, so am not expecting a single word stated above to change the amount of time spent debating this subject. Nor should it change anything. It is a free country right? :yup:

Edited June 23, 2008 by bbf2530

[solas989]

bbf2530 - thanks for trying to help me out. I am not attempting to single anyone out here or trying to fight - I am just looking for documented information and not internet word of mouth. I am skeptical because I can say I am a NASA engineer and write my recommendation that looks nice - but that would be a larger pile of bull...well you get the idea.

 

As a side note, I know many people say "Just take it to your dealer - they know best". Well, I have have several bad experiences (one includes OVER FILLING OIL to blow seals on a Windstar) with all the local dealers here (unless I travel 50+miles for oil change) so that is not an option.

 

Further, I have done what I have done and that is in the past. I am attempting to clarify for others and for my future vehicles (in 8 years or 150,000 miles, which ever is first).

 

For reference, I have gone to several Ford boards (trucks cars etc) and there is the same ongoing battle. I was able to get the Ford WSS-M2C930-A spec and "ILSAC GF-4 Minimum Performance Standard for Passenger Car Engine Oils" from this search - but matching it up with other brand oils is difficult.

 

I find oils that match both specs - but I can not determine what is best for break in or life of car - trying to find the answer to the massive debate.

 

The friction coefficient - can you give me this spec - or explain it in more detail? I understand that synthetic creates less friction than semi synthetic - but are their numbers attached and documented? From what little I understand...the HTHS Viscosity is what determines the ring/bearing wear (or as some stated on internet - the slipperiness). Can anyone shed more light on this?

 

Further, I understand that Ford is the one to fix my car, not oil brand X.

 

Maybe the best thing to for where I am coming from (change oil at 1000 miles to rid contaminants) is to use Ford Semi-Synthetic oil at 1000 miles, change the oil filter and then change over at 7500 miles to a full synthetic (or brand/type X).

 

Note: I have read many specs and reviews on the current Motorcraft 5w20 oil and it is indeed a good oil - tightly spec'd - it does not last as long as say Amsoil - but if you are changing per Ford recommendation (and you should), that should not be a problem.

 

Thanks

[bbf2530]

The friction coefficient - can you give me this spec - or explain it in more detail? I understand that synthetic creates less friction than semi synthetic - but are their numbers attached and documented? From what little I understand...the HTHS Viscosity is what determines the ring/bearing wear (or as some stated on internet - the slipperiness). Can anyone shed more light on this?

 

 

Maybe the best thing to for where I am coming from (change oil at 1000 miles to rid contaminants) is to use Ford Semi-Synthetic oil at 1000 miles, change the oil filter and then change over at 7500 miles to a full synthetic (or brand/type X).

 

Note: I have read many specs and reviews on the current Motorcraft 5w20 oil and it is indeed a good oil - tightly spec'd - it does not last as long as say Amsoil - but if you are changing per Ford recommendation (and you should), that should not be a problem.

 

Thanks

 

Hi solas. :D Let me apologize in advance if I am explaining things here that you already understand. I am just not sure where to start.

 

I agree with your thoughts on the "best thing to do". If you want to perform your first oil change early (before 5,000-7,500 miles, according to which OCI schedule you are using), re-fill with the Motorcraft Semi-Synthetic or equivalent. Then when you perform your second oil change, switch to a Full-Synthetic if you wish. Just wait until after the break-in period (after at least 3,000 total miles) for the Full-Synthetic switch. And of course we should always change the filter when we change the oil. All in all, it sounds as though you have certainly come up with a sensible plan.

 

Concerning "friction coefficient" (or coefficient of friction) and "viscosity": Very, very simply put, the friction coefficient is simply a mathematical figure representing how easily two objects can slide on each other. In other words, your shoes on ice would have a lower friction coefficient than your shoes on concrete. Now put oil on the bottom of your shoes (or the concrete), and the friction coefficient between your shoes and that concrete would then be lowered. So in layman's terms, think of it as how slippery it is between two objects.

 

Viscosity is (again, very, very simply put) the mathematical calculation of how easily something will flow (or not flow). Viscosity does not "necessarily" have anything to do with how well something will lubricate (i.e. lower the friction coefficient between two or more objects). It is the chemical and molecular structure of a fluid, semi-solid or solid which determines how well it will lubricate. Water is less viscous than engine oil but will not lubricate as well. Molasses is more viscous than engine oil but also will not lubricate as well.

 

Again, this is all extremely over simplified, and I am sure another forum member will jump in and provide you a much more technical explanation, but I hope you get the point.

 

To save yourself many, many headaches and the torture of getting bogged down in a lot of scientific figures/jargon, I think the oil change plan you stated above is just perfect!

 

Good luck solas. :beerchug:

 

 

PS - Solas, I completely understood that you were only looking for valid information and not trying to single anyone out or trying to fight. I hope it was also abundantly clear in my post/writing that I also was not trying to single anyone out or trying to fight. :angel:

Edited June 24, 2008 by bbf2530

[coastie72]

Just in case anyone did not know, Ford offers FULL SYNTHETIC as well. I work for a Ford dealer as Parts Manager and we keep it in inventory but sell very little. The Motorcraft synthetic blend does really well as for as longeveity. It is a personal choice as to what you use. Having seen customers vehicles on a regular basis with 200,000 mile plus that come to us for all their service that use the blend, I will too stay with the blend. Motorcraft does offer it if you want it. I would advise waiting until at least the first oil change, I am old school and still do the 3-4000 mile changes. It really does take that long for the engine to become bkoken-in as they say. Don

[rboe]

But you won't get 2% to 5% by going from SEMI-synthetic motorcraft 5W-20 to FULL synthetic. I think you're being way too optimistic.

 

I did the math on this with my Town & Country; figured I needed to get an extra 1/2mpg to break even - changing oil at 3K for standard oil, 5K+ for synthetic. I got about 1.5mpg better with the synthetic which more than offset the increased cost. I have not used a blended oil since my motorcycle days but my experience with the blended oil was extremely good.

 

With synthetic I know I have a better buffer and can push oil changes out a bit further - up to 10K - if need be. Phoenix gets hot in the summer but other than the heat I don't stress the drive train where I'd consider oil changes needing to be done more often.

 

If you change your oil every 3K, just about any oil will do you just fine.