PTU discontinued by Ford

[JohnCT]

PTUs in the Escape may not be problematic, but the engines (and the 6F35 transmissions) ... LOL. Somewhere there's a balance ... Def interested in the temps you observe for the PTU. How do you intend to go about that?

 

My experience with Escapes is limited to two 3.0V6s (04 and 05), both of which feature the CD4E, and both of which crapped out due to a damaged drum. Ford knew about the valve body problem that causes the failure way back in 1992 but continued to make this problem child available to us suckers until they went out of production over a dozen years later. The Duratec is a fine motor and pretty much trouble free as long as only Motorcraft plugs and coils are used.

 

My original plan was to strap myself under the Escape while my son drove up a long hill at high speed, but I don't trust that boy not to go off roading with me under it. So... the plan is to simply go for a ride and hit Southington Mountain for a strong charge up the hill. I'll get out (after having stopped the truck) and simply take a reading with my Raytek IR thermometer. I'll also take a temp of the wife's Edge although that will be harder to get since it's a bit more buried.

 

John

Edited August 31, 2016 by JohnCT

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

If the Escape rode a little higher, strapping yourself underneath wouldn't be such a bad idea. You could provide video & continuous measurements

[Brian K]

If you strapped yourself under the Escape and went for a drive and took a video - you'd be eligible for a Darwin Award! LOL

 

It sure would be interesting to know exactly why these PTU's are failing other than speculating over and over. Even in Canada where it is generally colder (and maybe less of a heat issue for 6 months of the year anyway) the tranny shops and Ford say lots of them fail. Mine has 80K miles and the oil was pretty think and gooey. I changed the oil multiple times (I put in a drain) this summer and the oil is still nice and is staying much thinner than it was - but still pretty black. Not sure I buy into 'the overheat once and it cooks the oil' theory and am more inclined to see it as multiple heat soaks but again - just guessing on my part. A temperature probe would be a nice mod.

[akirby]

Trust Waldo when he says he has it on good authority. He's not making up anything.

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

Nobody's saying he is But inquiring minds always want to know ... some of them firsthand!

Trust Waldo when he says he has it on good authority. He's not making up anything.

[Brian K]

I also wonder what "good authority" is. Waldo could be 100% right but with all the gunky greasy sh!t I saw in a used, failed PTU, I don't think this was caused by a 1 time event but that is just my opinion from observation.

I remember working with electric motors and transformers - the common saying was that for every 10 degree rise in temperature, the service life was halved. So temperature soaking was a time event - not a one time event. But then burn the toast once and it is burnt - validating Waldo's assertion. So who knows for sure except your hairdresser lol.

 

As far as fixing problems, Ford's (and any other manufacturer's) only concerns are warranty repairs. Once warranty is over, they could give a rats a$$ about longevity. Same thing with the broken spark plug issue on 05-07 V8's and aluminum hoods on Mustangs etc. Cars are designed to be throw away after 5-8 years in spite of them telling everyone how 'Ford Tough' things are - and remember the better idea light bulb?

[akirby]

Didn't they fix the spark plug problem? They design everything to last 150K miles (minimum) so I don't agree that they don't care. What I do agree on is that when something doesn't work as advertised they may or may not go out of their way to fix it depending on the cost, lifespan of the design, supplier issues, etc. - but they also do that for things that happen during the warranty. It's just a business decision that says it will cost $x to fix it right or $y if we don't fix it and I think they do factor in customer satisfaction - but I suspect that's much lower on the list than cost. They have extended the factory warranty on some parts to 100K or 150K miles (Focus TCM and DCT trans, Throttle bodies, door latches, etc.).

 

Also if the problem is additive parts tolerances and/or sloppy manufacturing then it's luck of the draw whether a particular unit will have problems. And those are not easy to fix and it's not something you can easily test for. It's still Ford's responsibility and if they can't control the parts then they should come up with a better way to handle the heat when it does happen. Or just extend the warranty to cover it.

[Waldo]

As far as fixing problems, Ford's (and any other manufacturer's) only concerns are warranty repairs. Once warranty is over, they could give a rats a$$ about longevity. Same thing with the broken spark plug issue on 05-07 V8's and aluminum hoods on Mustangs etc. Cars are designed to be throw away after 5-8 years in spite of them telling everyone how 'Ford Tough' things are - and remember the better idea light bulb?

 

How would you ever know about all the things Ford found would not last 150K miles and fixed before they ever went to production?

[Brian K]

Re broken spark plugs - yes - they did change the head design in late 2007 so they didn't have to use the 2 piece plugs. Others (Champion) came up with a 1 piece plug design to overcome the problem of the 2 piece plugs breaking - but Ford continues to push the 2 piece plug (in 05-07 V8's) with some anti-sieze on the snorkel that is prone to getting stuck. But the problem still exists for those that follow the recommended spark plug change interval and with warranty over at 60K the dealers just laugh at you when you come in and they tell you the cost could be $1000 if they change the plugs and they all break. No ownership of a crappy design. I really do understand that things break and eventually wear out and that is what warranty is for and my cost afterwards, but when a crappy design WILL result in a known problem, I have a problem with that. How would you feel if you took your vehicle in for it's 100,000 mile tune up and get told it isn't $300 but $1300 because the plugs broke off in the head which is a known issue design issue with your vehicle. Too bad you didn't bring it in sooner. hahahahaha - somehow the plugs breaking off is your fault because you drove it! Good thing there are forums to educate owners of potential problems.

 

Aluminum Hood corrosion is still an ongoing problem with no remedy other than to buy an aftermarket fiberglass hood - or never get the hood wet in a rain or live in a humid climate. Because it is not perforated within the warranty period, they don't do anything. Yup that is what the warranty states, but lousy manufacturing methods (steel impregnated in the hood lip) causes this blistery galvanic corrosion with nothing done but sand and repaint perhaps which does nothing to remedy the problem or keep it from re-occurring. A great design! Fortunately Safety issues as a result of design issues result in mandated recalls.

 

Waldo - you're right I don't know what they fix before it goes into production. But I see and read about the things they decide not to fix or remedy and for the life of me I can't understand why they wouldn't install a drain and recommend oil changes in the PTU when all other parts that require oil do have change/maintenance intervals and they refuse to change the oil without removing the PTU. Perhaps you can explain why in 8 years, they haven't improved the design of this PTU to make it last longer. Off topic but - I get laughed at by the Service Advisor when I asked about the cost to change spark plugs in my Mustang, nor did I receive a notice or recommendation at a service appointment that it would be a good idea to have a TSB performed on the plugs before they get so stuck in the heads that they break. In fact I had to tell the Service Advisor twice that Mustang had the 2 piece plug design. They did install PTU coolers on heavy use vehicles but people also seem to have issues with those too. Band-aid solutions rather than actual fixes - IMO.

[akirby]

I really do understand that things break and eventually wear out and that is what warranty is for and my cost afterwards, but when a crappy design WILL result in a known problem, I have a problem with that. How would you feel if you took your vehicle in for it's 100,000 mile tune up and get told it isn't $300 but $1300 because the plugs broke off in the head which is a known issue design issue with your vehicle.

 

That's the problem - you think a warranty should cover anything that's wrong other than things that just wear out and that's not what limited warranties cover (any warranty on anything including electronics, etc.). Warranties provide limited coverage - period. It doesn't matter why something breaks. Design flaw, manufacturing flaw, engineering flaw, sunspots, etc.

 

I know when I buy the vehicle what the warranty terms are. I have the option to buy an extended warranty for $1500 or so. If I choose not to pay for the warranty then I don't expect the mfr to cover something regardless of the cause. In this case I would say that I'm still $200 ahead by not buying a $1500 warranty. I don't expect a mfr to cover things outside the warranty period because that's not the coverage I purchased.

 

That said - I do think Ford should extend the warranty on things like this - which they have done on numerous occasions for other parts - TCMs, trannys, throttle bodies, etc. But even then you're only covered for 100K or so (150K in some cases).

[akirby]

for the life of me I can't understand why they wouldn't install a drain and recommend oil changes in the PTU when all other parts that require oil do have change/maintenance intervals and they refuse to change the oil without removing the PTU. Perhaps you can explain why in 8 years, they haven't improved the design of this PTU to make it last longer.

 

 

We've already discussed this at length. I asked the same thing but if Waldo's theory is correct then changing the oil regularly won't help a bit unless you are lucky and just happen to change it immediately after it gets too hot and burns up. It sounds like the cause of the overheating is internal (parts tolerances e.g.) and not that easy to diagnose and fix permanently.

[Waldo]

 

Waldo - you're right I don't know what they fix before it goes into production. But I see and read about the things they decide not to fix or remedy and for the life of me I can't understand why they wouldn't install a drain and recommend oil changes in the PTU when all other parts that require oil do have change/maintenance intervals and they refuse to change the oil without removing the PTU. Perhaps you can explain why in 8 years, they haven't improved the design of this PTU to make it last longer.

 

They don't recommend changing the oil in the RDU, the transmission, the A/C lines, the suspension ball joints, the window regulators, basically anything except the engine oil. It's almost as if Ford had data that said customers are more satisfied with a vehicle when they don't have to do as much maintenance so they design systems that don't need maintenance.

 

And how do you know that the PTUs coming off the line today aren't better and won't last longer than the ones that were made 8 years ago?

[Brian K]

Most manufacturers recommend changing all fluids at prescribed intervals - including brakes, transmissions, rear diffs (RDU), and transfer cases (PTU's). And in my manual and at the dealership they do reference regular maintenance fluid changes of all sorts. Even the local dealership shop foreman agreed that changing the PTU fluid was a good idea and he wondered why Ford did recommend it.

 

But you're right about a few things - there are things that don't show up in the manual for fluid changes like the A/C lines, ball joints. U-joints and muffler bearings. Apparently you agree with this 'hands off' approach and that may work for you - but it doesn't for me. But if you look at aftermarket control arms etc, they usually come with greasable bushing for longevity.

 

How do I know that the new PTU's are or aren't better than the old ones - by reading the forums and hearing of others frustrating experiences. Of course the really new ones are not mentioned because if they fail, they would be covered by warranty and I doubt if there are any public stats on that. I went into a local Ford dealership parts department and asked to see a PTU so I could have a look at the vent to see if I could remove it easily which it was in the vehicle. He looked one up and said they are a pretty standard part number across multiple platforms and said "oh we have 3 of them in stock - I guess we go through lots of them that's why we have so many". From that I surmised they are a high failure item.

 

Could you please possible explain what the 'good authority' you have it on, that makes you so certain that the PTU fails based on a one time heating event?

[akirby]

He didn't say that you should not change fluids - he simply pointed out that mfrs don't always tell you that you have to change certain fluids even though we all know it's a good idea.

 

And I know Waldo's sources and they are reliable - and that's all we're going to say about that. If you don't believe it then that's fine.

[Brian K]

Those 'sources' must be a national security secret lol. Maybe Wikileaks eventually.

[JohnCT]

 

 

 

Perhaps you can explain why in 8 years, they haven't improved the design of this PTU to make it last longer.

 

 

 

 

From my personal experience as a long time Ford buyer, it's my opinion that it's Ford's company policy not to fix screw ups until the next generation vehicle is designed. Look at how many years the 3.8V6 Essex ran bad head gaskets (known from warranty failures the first year), or how many years the AXOD or CD4E transmissions were produced with known defects. All of these problems were easily resolved in the aftermarket soon after these cars first went into production, but Ford did not implement any of these improvements as long as the vehicles or systems were in produced.

 

This is the major reason Ford cars have such crappy resale value. Buying a used Ford is buying a major systems time bomb in too many cases.

 

Other than my 1966 Mustang 2+2, this Edge is my last Ford. They've just burned me too many times.

 

If you buy new cars every 3 to 5 years and purchase an extended warranty, then they'll do just fine for you (apart from the resale value).

 

John

Edited October 4, 2016 by JohnCT

[akirby]

I don't think you can compare 80s and 90s Ford to Ford today. There are some cases where Ford doesn't update a failing part but there are many others where they do update the parts and they also offer extended warranties. I've had numerous Ford and Lincolns that went past the factory warranty (no extended warranty) and have spent

 

Edge in particular has had more than its share of problems - ptus, fuel tanks, door latches, throttle bodies, tss/oss sensors, etc. - but overall I don't think Ford is much different than other mfrs. I'm sure right now there are owners of all those other brands saying the same thing about their vehicle.

[JohnCT]

I don't think you can compare 80s and 90s Ford to Ford today. There are some cases where Ford doesn't update a failing part but there are many others where they do update the parts and they also offer extended warranties.

 

I think I can safely make that comparison. I put transmissions in an 04 and 05 Escape (the famous CD4E) and that's fairly recent. The CD4E went in production in 1994(!) with a valve body design problem that caused runaway line pressure which collapsed the forward drum. Both my Escapes suffered from catastrophic drum failure. Do you think it was ever resolved? It was, but not by Ford. This design error was never addressed in the 14(!) years the transmission was produced. I had both Escape transmissions rebuilt locally and I purchased the Transgo CD4E Jr. kit which fixes the problem ($45 retail) and had the rebuilder install the kits.

 

You need more recent? The Edge's PTU went in production in 2007, and according to my source at a Ford dealer (cousin), the PTUs were puking way back in 2007. Ford again didn't fix the problem by 2009 (when I got suckered in) and judging by the number of people with the same problem as late as 2014 (last year for first gen Edge). That's hardly ancient history.

 

In the old days, the standard advice was not to buy any first year design because the bugs needed to be ironed out. My advice to Ford buyers is to indeed wait that first year, but if the first year has problems, look elsewhere because every year after that will continue to be trouble until the next vehicle redesign. If the car seems trouble free (particularly those with 80K miles or so), it's probably a safe bet.

 

But I admit my culpability in Ford's unchanging policy simply by enabling them through continued purchases from Ford. I've rectified that as I just picked up a Jeep Compass last month to replace one of the Escapes (business vehicles) and, come spring, I'll unload the wife's Edge for a Caddy XT5 or a Grand Cherokee Overland.

 

John

[akirby]

And you don't think other brands have the exact same types of problems? Good luck with that.

[omar302]

This article is about a company that dissembles cars for reverse engineering, the point is, the BMW example they had has 54,000 individual parts. If non fail, it would be a miracle! Then again, Ford's problem here, as stated earlier, that the part is still failing after several years in production, though truth be told, there have been at least 7 revisions to the PTU, and even though my MKX, being in the very HOT GCC, still has the original PTU with ~ 60K miles.

[arabski]

greetings from the middle east (Omar's neighborhood )... extended warranty on my Ford covers the drive train here for up to 5 years ( and 150k miles) - that's what they say... What it actually means is that they only ask you to service the car every 5k miles and not much more. Mine has 56k miles (to date, 3 years old next month).

 

Let's see how much longer my will PTU last here...

[omar302]

greetings from the middle east (Omar's neighborhood )... extended warranty on my Ford covers the drive train here for up to 5 years ( and 150k miles) - that's what they say... What it actually means is that they only ask you to service the car every 5k miles and not much more. Mine has 56k miles (to date, 3 years old next month).

 

Let's see how much longer my will PTU last here...

Refer to this post, Middle East 2007-2012 Edge & MKX have an extended warranty on the PTU for 10 years or 190,000 km. For 2013+ they added a drain plug to allow for periodical PTU oil changes. Also, the extended powertrain warranty is a Ford standard policy, it is 5 years / 100,000 km for Ford vehicles & 6 years / 110,000 km for Lincoln.

[JohnCT]

This article is about a company that dissembles cars for reverse engineering, the point is, the BMW example they had has 54,000 individual parts. If non fail, it would be a miracle! Then again, Ford's problem here, as stated earlier, that the part is still failing after several years in production, though truth be told, there have been at least 7 revisions to the PTU, and even though my MKX, being in the very HOT GCC, still has the original PTU with ~ 60K miles.

 

Before I respond further, I just want to point out that I NEVER had a problem with any problem with any design. As an engineer I've seen designs on paper that should have been bullet proof but were somewhat less successful in production. My problem with Ford is their refusal to mitigate the initial problem properly or at all. There might indeed be several revisions of the PTU, but none apparently have fixed the problem. Despite the opinion of others here, I'm convinced the big problem with the PTU is a long term coking of the fluid due to friction loss and heat gain from it's installed environment. Either source of heat by itself is manageable, but together they're a problem. But my point of contention in all this is not how to fix the problem or even that the problem exists, but company policy once the problem is discovered.

 

Anyway, out of the many thousands of parts in any car, only a relative few feature new technology or are under unusual stresses. Alternators and generators (for example) have been made for over a hundred years, and there's no excuse for the alternator (which is comprised of dozens of individual parts that count towards the total) to be troublesome at this point, and they generally aren't. Other parts that make up the many thousands are wires, connectors, bulbs, relays, fuses, nuts, bolts, washers, seals, glass and plastic parts etc. that have been made for years and are trouble free.

 

The PTU is a relatively new design, but has been used before in Ford products. I have owned two Escapes that use a PTU that are NOT inherently troublesome, despite the fact that they are rarely serviced, but they on the other hand are not located up against a scalding hot catalytic converter.

 

If you are a car buyer who replaces his car when the car payments are done, then this isn't a problem for you. I'm one of those guys that might keep a car or truck for many years taking advantage of no car payments and lower insurance and lower property tax, so cars that fall apart after 80K are something that concern me.

 

John

[akirby]

I understand this is probably a tough thing for Ford to fix from an engineering perspective. But I don't understand why they don't simply extend the warranty to 100K miles (other than the obvious one). This would placate nearly all the affected customers.

[JohnCT]

Update:

 

Right before Thanksgiving, the PTU all but blew up. It was jerking badly and sounded like someone shooting ball bearings at the bottom of the car when it moved. I had previously purchased the PTU, but didn't have the time to change it before Christmas, so my wife picked out a new 2017 Grand Cherokee Limited 4X4. I was going to trade the Edge but neither of the two Jeep dealers wanted it with a bad PTU even though I was going to include the part in the trade. They suggested I put it on Craigslist and get what I could for it. I pushed it to the end of the driveway and there it's sat for the last 10 months.

 

Fast forward many months later and my sister suddenly needed a car, so I thought that since she's older and puts few miles on the car, I would put the PTU in and give her the car figuring with limited use it should last a few years with only 80K miles on it.

 

So my buddy and I put the Edge up on jackstands and replaced the PTU last weekend. This can be done on the ground but it would be far easier on a lift. I'm going to post the procedure on a new thread. With the new PTU and a new battery, it's running again and my sister loves it (she should, Limited with every option including the NAV).

 

Thanks for all the help and advice guys.

 

John