Ford Powertrain Engineering

[akirby]

How do you know that "most" don't make it to 150K? Ford sold over 240K 2007/2008 Edges. If you figure 1/3 are AWD that's 80K vehicles. How many of those 80K have PTU problems? 8K may seem like a big number but it's only 10%. Remember the only people that post are the ones with problems. You never hear from the ones with no problems.

[carguy75]

Well most owners do not have time or the desire to join a forum dedicated to their cars.

 

Therefore, most owners probably just trade their cars in when it becomes too problematic or just report the problems to JD Power, which why our car has such a low rating with them.

 

I have seen over the years that forums with the most DIY threads and complains are a good indicator of what to come.

 

Just for fun go to a Lexus forum and see how boring it is.

 

Most posts are about wheels and tires, hardly any one posting any DIY threads or threatening to sue Lexus for defective parts.

 

Plus, I believe that many owners do not keep their cars pass the warranty period if they bought it or leased it new.

 

Hence why this forum(and others like it) is most likely full of second hand owners who are dealing with the crap that goes wrong later in the car's life, which is the reason for mostly negative posts.

 

And why Ford is still selling cars even if crap fall apart after 100k miles, since most owners trade their cars before any major problems happens out of their pocket and have bought new cars covered by a warranty leaving us second hand owners with the repairs/headaches on the old ones.

Edited September 1, 2015 by carguy75

[Waldo]

 

And why Ford is still selling cars even if crap fall apart after 100k miles, since most owners trade their cars before any major problems happens out of their pocket and have bought new cars covered by a warranty leaving us second hand owners with the repairs/headaches on the old ones.

 

But that just brings down the residual values which in turn increases lease prices which in turn drives down sales. It's all connected, if it were really as big a problem as you seem to think it is, Ford wouldn't have just had their best August sales in 9 years.

[carguy75]

 

But that just brings down the residual values which in turn increases lease prices which in turn drives down sales. It's all connected, if it were really as big a problem as you seem to think it is, Ford wouldn't have just had their best August sales in 9 years.

Since I do not have a chart to really look at that explains your statement, the best response I can give is that automakers make more money by selling and leasing new cars.

 

Hence why they are constantly remodeling and upgrading their cars every a few years or so.

 

Used cars sales are not really that much of a concern for automakers since most used cars are sold by independent retail dealerships,auto auctions, or personal sales by owners.

 

If anything, many automakers are using repair work/replacement parts for out-of-warranty repairs on older cars as a source of addition profit gain to their sales profits.

 

Just take a real honest look at how many people really keep a car for 10 years anymore, most people who are able to purchase/lease new cars seem to trade up every few years.

 

I believe that those individuals are the customers that Ford and other automakers are focusing more of their attention and product research on, not the second hand owners who buy their cars from some random auto sale outside their facilities.

 

However, the automakers have tapped into the pre-owned market by offering Certified Pre-owned Cars(CPO) to help sale cars that are used but have low miles to attract used car owners to their businesses.

 

But ultimately, lease and new cars sales are what the auto makers care about, not making a car that car run trouble-free for 200k miles.

 

If any thing the automakers design parts that will last through the warranty period to appease the new car/lease owners, so complaints are kept to minimum so those owners will come back again in a few years.

 

That is my opinion on it.

Edited September 1, 2015 by carguy75

[akirby]

That's a simplistic view. Of course they care about new car sales, but if 8 yr old models were doing so badly that it caused a lot of negative PR and enough owners were pissed off enough then that would start affecting new car sales.

 

I mean, every mfr does that analysis on any problem - what does it cost us to fix it versus the benefit - or how much will it hurt us if we don't do it?

 

Ford has all the data and they've chosen to extend warranties in the past on certain items like Focus Transmissions, so the only logical conclusion is they don't feel it's a big enough issue to hurt them.

 

Does that suck for people who have problems? Sure. But it's no different than every other auto mfr.

 

I had a Sony LCD TV that died after 4 years with a known problem. They extended the warranty on other models for a similar issue but not mine. What did I do? I bought a Samsung to replace it. I didn't jump up and down and demand that Sony cover it - that's their business choice and I made my choice as a consumer. I wouldn't blame anyone for not buying another Ford if they had such a problem. Just don't think you're more likely to have something like that covered by another mfr.

[carguy75]

The problems Ford have with the PTU is probably not as bad as before, when the seals failed early in the cars life and then failed again shortly after the replacement until redesigned that sparked too many unacceptable repairs to Ford even during the warranty period.

 

You got to also remember that AWD Edges are not the most purchased Edge models, that title goes to the FWD models.

 

So on the bigger scale of analysis and graphs or sale numbers and complains, Ford may have done as mention above and considered the losses acceptable as the component performance stands after the seal redesign.

 

Some people may still buy an Edge, but just buy the FWD model if they had a problem with a previous AWD model instead of leaving Ford completely.

 

I give a simple view to a very complex issue that is not easily put in words because we do not have the statistically data of what Ford is using and how wide spread the problem is with the PTU or any other component.

 

But like mentioned in the post above, consumers will ultimately make a decision to stay with a product if it is mostly good or just leave completely if it have been mostly bad.

 

When it come to us used car owners, we can sometimes misjudge a car due to buying one that was not properly maintained, but at the same time some parts are just not meant to last long.

 

It always a risk when buying used and/or owning a car for a long time.

 

Both usually guarantees that a owner will have to do some repair out-of-pocket.

 

Unfortunate, used car owners usually have to repair a car very soon after the purchase compared to a new car owner.

 

Hence, why I think you see two different attitudes about the same car on the forums when it comes to repairs.

Edited September 1, 2015 by carguy75

[DKS]

It is very interesting to hear the terminology of those who seem to see all things through a blue lens. They take terms completely out of context or meaning to attempt to discredit concerns. Jumping up and down? Come on, get real. This is a known problem. The failure rate for both transmissions and PTU units are far higher than normal. Google the repair records for this car. It is far worse than normal. That is unquestionable with clearly easy to find numbers. All I asked at the beginning of this thread is for Ford to own up to a poorly engineered part, a major part, and offer some relief to those who were stuck because of it. I have found instances easily this morning of people who bought an extended powertrain warranty from Ford and then Ford refused to honor it when a sensor, that is a known issue, failed by calling it an electrical failure. The part was inside of the transmission. Look up the used car ratings on these. Ford can clearly stick their collective head in the sand on this. Maybe they, and I think this is it, hope that enough people will just overlook the issue. They might. That does not mean they don't richly deserve to be called out on it.

[akirby]

Stop with the blue lens/kool-aid drinking/apologist crap. My viewpoint applies to ALL products including electronics, furniture, other vehicle makes, etc. - not just Ford.

 

Nobody is saying there isn't a problem. There is clearly an engineering problem on the early PTUs. It doesn't really matter how many were affected - a defect is a defect and a warranty is a warranty unless it's a safety issue.

 

Some of us feel that while it would be nice if Ford extended the warranty, we understand why they haven't.

 

You feel that it's unacceptable even though every other vehicle mfr (and other mfrs outside the auto industry) does exactly the same thing. That's fine. If you never want to buy a Ford again, that's fine.

[carguy75]

It is very interesting to hear the terminology of those who seem to see all things through a blue lens. They take terms completely out of context or meaning to attempt to discredit concerns. Jumping up and down? Come on, get real. This is a known problem. The failure rate for both transmissions and PTU units are far higher than normal. Google the repair records for this car. It is far worse than normal. That is unquestionable with clearly easy to find numbers. All I asked at the beginning of this thread is for Ford to own up to a poorly engineered part, a major part, and offer some relief to those who were stuck because of it. I have found instances easily this morning of people who bought an extended powertrain warranty from Ford and then Ford refused to honor it when a sensor, that is a known issue, failed by calling it an electrical failure. The part was inside of the transmission. Look up the used car ratings on these. Ford can clearly stick their collective head in the sand on this. Maybe they, and I think this is it, hope that enough people will just overlook the issue. They might. That does not mean they don't richly deserve to be called out on it.

You are right about Ford and their power-train warranties.

 

I was lucky to have bought a extended warranty when I first bought my used 2011 Ford Edge, because Ford blamed my leak on transmission cooler/AC condenser unit, which is not considered a power-train component even though it is part of the transmission.

 

I would have had to pay over $1000 to replace it myself, if I did not have my extended warranty.

 

So again, I agree that Ford do have some crappy ways of getting out of repairing cars under their power-train warranty.

 

Even Nissan repaired a leaky power steering hose under the power-train warranty coverage on my old 2006 Murano, which my Ford dealership told me was not covered under the power-train warranty coverage when i asked what was covered specifically after I was told that my transmission-cooler was not.

 

So used car buyers beware, Ford power-train warranty really only covers the internal engine parts, internal transmission parts and internal differentials/transfer-case parts .

 

Good news is that the PTU is supposed to be covered though, just not any thing outside the unit.

 

http://www.fordservicecontent.com/Ford_Content/catalog/owner_guides/14frdwa3e.pdf

Edited September 1, 2015 by carguy75

[akirby]

Ford clearly and specifically lists the parts that are covered by each warranty including the powertrain warranty. I would assume other mfrs do the same thing. But most people never bother to read it.

 

http://www.fordservicecontent.com/Ford_Content/catalog/owner_guides/07frdwa5e.pdf

[Waldo]

 

Used cars sales are not really that much of a concern for automakers since most used cars are sold by independent retail dealerships,auto auctions, or personal sales by owners.

 

 

This is not true. Who do you think own's every Ford leased through Ford Credit when the lease is over? Ford does. Ford has to sell those vehicles (usually at auction) and the more money they can get for them, the more profit they make.

 

Or to look at it the other way, a lease price is a very simple calculation. It's the price of the new car, minus the price of the car at the end of the lease, divided by the length of the lease with some financing added on. Therefore if you have a higher projected residual value (price at the end of the lease), the montly payment for the customer will be lower. Lower monthly payments translate directly to more sales. Therefore automakers do care greatly about used car prices because it does directly impact their new car sales.

[carguy75]

This is not true. Who do you think own's every Ford leased through Ford Credit when the lease is over? Ford does. Ford has to sell those vehicles (usually at auction) and the more money they can get for them, the more profit they make.

 

Or to look at it the other way, a lease price is a very simple calculation. It's the price of the new car, minus the price of the car at the end of the lease, divided by the length of the lease with some financing added on. Therefore if you have a higher projected residual value (price at the end of the lease), the montly payment for the customer will be lower. Lower monthly payments translate directly to more sales. Therefore automakers do care greatly about used car prices because it does directly impact their new car sales.

LOL. I was talking about used cars sales overall.

 

Yes, Ford and other car manufacturers resale leased cars returned to them usually under the CPO program like i mentioned in an earlier post and at auto auctions.

 

However, Ford do not care or profit from used car sales done at privately owned dealerships(Carmax for example) or personal sales conducted by owners.

 

No matter how you try to flip it with your excellent attempt of marketing terminology usage, the automakers main focus is on new car sales /leases not the used car market.

 

I never said that they do not have any interest in used cars, however used cars do not create the large profit gains that is generated by new cars sales/leases which include financing and interest profits .

 

Since I am not receiving any cash dividends or profits from any auto maker I will let you have your opinion on the matter.

 

If you really feel that Ford and other automakers highly value used car sales outside their facilities and prices of the cars sold in private transactions,so be it.

 

I believe otherwise.

 

Well, maybe automakers do value the free advertisement of having older cars with their brand-name driving on the road, which helps create a reputation of durability that help attract customers which causes a demand for their product.

 

I took a few economic/marketing classes (micro and macro included)in college way back when as well.

Edited September 2, 2015 by carguy75

[carguy75]

Ford clearly and specifically lists the parts that are covered by each warranty including the powertrain warranty. I would assume other mfrs do the same thing. But most people never bother to read it.

 

http://www.fordservicecontent.com/Ford_Content/catalog/owner_guides/07frdwa5e.pdf

So true.

 

Many owners like myself do make assumptions that everything will be covered if it is connected to the engine or transmission, but that is not the case with power-train warranties.

 

Some manufacturers cover more than others with broader coverage and some are very specific like Ford.

[akirby]

Don't you think that high residual values (driven by used car sales) results in cheaper leases thereby giving Ford a pricing advantage versus the competition?

 

Not so much how many used cars are sold but rather the average resale price. Seems legitimate to me.

[Waldo]

 

 

If you really feel that Ford and other automakers highly value used car sales outside their facilities and prices of the cars sold in private transactions,so be it.

 

I believe otherwise.

 

 

You can believe whatever you want. but it's a fact that automakers do care. Here's a quote from Ford's 1st quarter earnings call:

 

As shown below the chart, favorable lease residual performance due to higher auction values in North America contributed to the higher pre-tax profit compared with fourth quarter 2014.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/3112126-ford-motors-f-ceo-mark-fields-discusses-q1-2015-results-earnings-call-transcript?page=2

Surely with your economics background you can understand how higher sale prices for used cars at the corner dealer relate to higher auction values.

Right from the CEO's mouth:

"One of the biggest dissatisfiers to customers is when, at the time they want to sell their vehicles, if it's lost a lot of value," says Mark Fields, president of the Americas for Ford Motor, at a dinner during the industry's annual Management Briefing Seminars here in northern Michigan.

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=5576557

Edited September 2, 2015 by Waldo

[carguy75]

Don't you think that high residual values (driven by used car sales) results in cheaper leases thereby giving Ford a pricing advantage versus the competition?

 

Not so much how many used cars are sold but rather the average resale price. Seems legitimate to me.

No. Higher demand equals higher price, less demand equals less price.

 

So yes a higher demand on used cars would bring lease/new car prices down, but Ford may not have an price advantage since demand/preference usually determines price(supply/demand also come into play).

 

Therefore another maker may be more preferred to Ford and sale more cars which means that they can sale their cars for less money than Ford(KIA for example) since Ford still has to make enough profit to keep running.

 

Amazon and Walmart are prime examples of selling quality products cheaply at large volumes less than the competition.

 

Overall, If anything used car sales bring in less money than a new car in our current market.

 

You have to factor in depreciation and sales volume into your question when comparing profits from used cars sales vs. new car sales.

 

Most used cars are value nearly 50% of what they were valued when new, especially American cars made by Ford.

 

So in theory it would take two used five year old Ford Edges to equal the value of one new Ford Edge sold.

 

The lease is even better because Ford will gain two sources of profit from the transaction, the lease(including fees) and the sale of the return car either as CPO or at the auto auction.

 

I agree that if Ford sales the used cars then it has more interest in the used car market prices(any business would), but ultimately Ford only have a small interest(prices and demand) in the used car market conducted outside it facilities I believe.

 

But not enough to make the Ford Edge components last longer just to appease used car owners, like the topic was originally intending to address.

Edited September 2, 2015 by carguy75

[carguy75]

 

You can believe whatever you want. but it's a fact that automakers do care. Here's a quote from Ford's 1st quarter earnings call:

 

As shown below the chart, favorable lease residual performance due to higher auction values in North America contributed to the higher pre-tax profit compared with fourth quarter 2014.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/3112126-ford-motors-f-ceo-mark-fields-discusses-q1-2015-results-earnings-call-transcript?page=2

Surely with your economics background you can understand how higher sale prices for used cars at the corner dealer relate to higher auction values.

Right from the CEO's mouth:

"One of the biggest dissatisfiers to customers is when, at the time they want to sell their vehicles, if it's lost a lot of value," says Mark Fields, president of the Americas for Ford Motor, at a dinner during the industry's annual Management Briefing Seminars here in northern Michigan.

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=5576557

LOL.

 

I know that they care.

 

Any business cares about subsequent markets and product demand.

 

My point is that Ford do not care enough to design its components just to appease used car owners.

 

Any designs Ford make to its cars is focused more on the new car buyer, and most components are designed to last through the warranty period at the least.

 

If lucky, the parts will go longer but the standard I believe is the warranty period.

 

I believe this because it costs Ford money to repair cars under warranty and those repairs have a better chance of reducing the demand for their products.

 

So yes, Ford cars about used car owners, but not as much as attracting and keeping new car owners.

 

Plus, you have to remember if old cars lasted longer it would drive down the demand for new cars and reduce the revenue from replacement parts and repair services done by the automakers at their repair facilities.

 

So Ford, and other cars makers know what they are doing when it comes to designing components and their lifespans.

 

Sometimes, the parts fails too soon and cost them money when it fails during the warranty period.

 

In which they are quick to find a solution, like with the early PTU seals on the pre-2011 Edges, which costs Ford a lot of money due to having to replace the whole PTU on cars under warranty before the new seal was developed.

 

If the same PTU seals failed at 100k miles, then owners would be still complaining about needing a solution I believe.

 

Profit and losses is what automakers really care about, not much else.

Edited September 2, 2015 by carguy75

[Waldo]

 

If lucky, the parts will go longer but the standard I believe is the warranty period.

 

 

 

Every part of every Ford car is designed and tested to last 150,000 miles and has been for quite some time. The fact that some parts don't make it that long is only due to production variability or customer usage that isn't captured in Ford's test procedures.

 

 

Profit and losses is what automakers really care about, not much else.

 

100% true, but automakers have learned that long-term reliability leads to higher profits.

 

Here's an example of how Ford cares. The Ecoboost F150 had an issue where water splashing up from the tires could bounce around and hit the exhaust manifold. Over a long time (~80,000+ miles) this can cause the manifold to crack. So Ford added a shield at a cost of around $5 to every EB F150 even though there was no history of anyone having a cracked manifold under warranty.

[carguy75]

 

Every part of every Ford car is designed and tested to last 150,000 miles and has been for quite some time. The fact that some parts don't make it that long is only due to production variability or customer usage that isn't captured in Ford's test procedures.

 

 

100% true, but automakers have learned that long-term reliability leads to higher profits.

 

Here's an example of how Ford cares. The Ecoboost F150 had an issue where water splashing up from the tires could bounce around and hit the exhaust manifold. Over a long time (~80,000+ miles) this can cause the manifold to crack. So Ford added a shield at a cost of around $5 to every EB F150 even though there was no history of anyone having a cracked manifold under warranty.

What you say sounds good.

 

However, if Ford really designed every part on the vehicle to last 150K miles on the Edge(or any recent vehicle over the last several years since you mention the practice have been going on for a while) then some engineers need to be fired because they are not correctly testing the parts for real world durability (wheel bearing, power steering hoses, brake booster,PTU, AC condenser,etc).

 

My AC condenser failed at 22k miles!!!

 

Well Ford maybe considerate enough to add a $5 metal shield to prevent a cracked manifold, but they still are having problems fixing existing problems with the Eco-boost in the F150.

 

http://ford2015car.com/common-problems-ford-ecoboost/

 

However, i never stated that Ford do not care at all, just not enough to spend more money than deemed acceptable to correct issues that happen later in life on the car pass 5 years/60k miles.

 

Now, before we go on and on with this, i really do not work for any automotive company so I really do not know how much resources go where in any company.

 

This is just my opinion I am posting , like yours unless you are a CEO or key member of management in the Ford Motor Company.

 

So lets just have our own take on the matter instead of trying speculate our way to victory here on this forum.

Edited September 2, 2015 by carguy75

[akirby]

Since you';ve already made up your mind and you won't be swayed by any facts to the contrary, I agree. Let it go.

 

And that website you posted is nothing but clickbait with no meaningful information.

Edited September 2, 2015 by akirby

[carguy75]

Since you';ve already made up your mind and you won't be swayed by any facts to the contrary, I agree. Let it go.

 

And that website you posted is nothing but clickbait with no meaningful information.

Well if you have some good information to share, do so by all means.

 

I just used that link as a quick reference that the Ford F150 Eco-boost was not the best example for the member to use as Ford's banner of product perfection just because they added a splash shield, since many other serious problems is still tarnishing the brand and model.

 

That is why we have this forum, so we can trade information or share it.

 

My point is that these posts can go on and on when it just become a trade-off of opinions with some article linked here and there that really do not provide any hard proof or concrete facts that disprove one side or the other.

Edited September 2, 2015 by carguy75

[dshamer]

My point is that Ford do not care enough to design its components just to appease used car owners.

 

Any designs Ford make to its cars is focused more on the new car buyer, and most components are designed to last through the warranty period at the least.

 

If lucky, the parts will go longer but the standard I believe is the warranty period

 

.

Yes, I agree with that statement.

 

 

In which they are quick to find a solution, like with the early PTU seals on the pre-2011 Edges, which costs Ford a lot of money due to having to replace the whole PTU on cars under warranty before the new seal was developed.

 

No, I disagree. The PTU is still failing. It's the same flawed design. As stated before, it needs a drain or a complete redesign...Or, they improved the the current design (7 up dates?) JUST ENOUGH to make it last for the initial warranty...than they don't give a sheet.

[carguy75]

.

Yes, I agree with that statement.

 

 

No, I disagree. The PTU is still failing. It's the same flawed design. As stated before, it needs a drain or a complete redesign...Or, they improved the the current design (7 up dates?) JUST ENOUGH to make it last for the initial warranty...than they don't give a sheet.

Darn, I keep thinking that the PTU failures are a thing of the past.

 

Well i hope mine last as long as I own my Edge.

[akirby]

You guys are right. Ford is run by morons who only engineer things to last 1 day past the factory warranty. F150 ecoboosts are death traps that are falling apart and Ford doesn't care. Ford never updates parts or extends factory warranties on anything.

 

End of discussion.