Ford Powertrain Engineering

[DKS]

I have a 2008 Edge AWD. I purchased it in 2010 with 25,000 miles. I liked the styling, the size, and it looked like a good vehicle. It now has 115,000 miles on it. I read this forum from the time I purchased it reading about PTU and transmission issues. I hoped they were just individual issues. Consumer Reports told people to avoid the Ford Edge at all costs. I now understand what they were talking about. Less than 300 miles ago, I had to have the PTU replaced at a cost of $1,300. This past weekend at a stop sign, the car simply decided it would not move. Neither forward, nor reverse gears gave me anything. It just made clunking noises and would not go. It finally began to move some and since I was close to home, I was able to limp it there.

 

It was towed to a shop where we have discovered that it has at least one bad CV joint, and something in the transmission. I am awaiting the final diagnosis. I am also waiting for the final bill. Ford Motor Company, back in the day 100,000 miles was a lot. Now it is not. My GMC Envoy had 170,000 miles when it was totaled and had absolutely no drivetrain issues. The last car I had to put a transmission in was the last Ford I purchased, in 1975. In addition to always wondering when the Vista Roof is going to die, can you, Ford Motor Company, give me one reason I should even think about being a return customer? I would like to be a repeat customer, especially since you did not participate in the bailout in 2009, but I simply can't see how I can do so with your abysmal engineering department and your unwillingness to stand behind obvious design flaws. If PTU failures, Vista Roof failures, or transmission failures were rare events it would be a different story, but they are not. These are common problems and you refuse to step in and make it right. Were these any type of safety issue, this failure rate would have required a recall. I am beginning to understand where the Found on Road Dead came from. I am very disappointed in this company.

[Waldo]

Your vehicle is almost 8 years old. What makes you think that Ford hasn't taken steps to resolve the issues over the past 8 years??

[DKS]

The issue is the number of cars that they built with faulty engineering. Sometimes you have to make things right. What information do you have that Ford has made these designs any better? I remember when cars were old at eight years. That should no longer be the case as cars from Japan have shown us. A properly maintained car, as this one is, should not have major powertrain issues at this mileage.

[akirby]

There have been several PTU revisions.

 

Sounds like you're not going to be happy no matter what happens so you may be better off with another brand at this point.

[DKS]

Thank you. PTU revisions do nothing for the people who bought the cars prior to the revisions when they had not done due diligence on engineering. I want them to own up to the poor planning and make it right. This car is going to cost over $4000 over the last 6 weeks due to poor engineering. That is the issue. I came to Ford to give them a chance. Sounds like all you guys want to do is be apologists for them. Fair enough. I should buy something next time that has up to date engineering and production. Interestingly, I had several friends who read my Facebook post on this issue state they had similar problems and will never again buy another Ford product. I want to give them the benefit of the doubt. Guess that is a bad idea.

[DKS]

Airkirby, I have always had respect for your opinions and comments on this. I found this forum before I bought the car. I read many of your posts prior to making the purchase, as I had not bought Ford for over 20 years. Here is where we disagree. I have a friend who drives a RAM pickup. He has 180,000 miles on it. The company just agreed to give people with that vehicle a lifetime powertrain warranty as long as they own the vehicle. They owned up to a poor design. What I want Ford to do is own up and give people with those cars an extended warranty for 150, 200 thousand. Instead, they have just told us, "You are on your own.".

[akirby]

I'm not disagreeing with you that it's poor engineering. But I'm not being an apologist - just a realist. If the parts are updated then after they're replaced the first time they should be good to go after that. If the mfr decides to extend the warranty on such parts (which Ford has done several times including Focus transmissions) that's great, but I don't hold the belief that it's required.

 

Most failures could be traced back to some engineering failure somewhere. That's what the warranty is for. If you want more coverage then you buy it, otherwise you choose to self-insure after the factory warranty and you're on your own.

 

Ford had an engineering problem with 4V 4.6L DOHC engines in Cobras and Aviators. Our head was replaced under warranty. I got rid of it after the warranty expired because I didn't want to risk buying a $4K head when it happened again. But that was my choice. At no time did I think Ford was obligated to fix the underlying problem.

 

So all I believe a mfr (any mfr - electronics, etc.) is required to do is honor the terms of the warranty. Anything above that is gravy.

 

And for the record - I would like to see Ford extend the warranty on these known problems. But if they don't I don't count that against them.

 

And you'll find the same behavior at most other mfrs including other problems with Chrysler vehicles. They all pick and choose what they choose to cover or not.

[Waldo]

Ford knows that people won't return to buy again if they are not satisfied and have a lot of problems, yet Ford is selling a bunch of cars right now and gaining market share while showing improving quality numbers. Of course it's easy to find all kinds of people with PTU problems on 5-9 year old Ford products, but the bottom line is that there just aren't that many people that are truly getting pissed off about it to really make a difference to Ford.

 

BTW I find it too much of a coincidence that such a short time after your PTU replacement you had other problems with the tranny and CV joints. Those are all parts that would be "touched" during a PTU replacement, so I'd be highly suspicious that it was the actual PTU repair that caused those issues, not faulty Ford engineering. You can certainly blame Ford for the PTU (and yes, they've put a lot of effort into fixing that issue), but without more information I don't think it's fair to blame them on your other problems.

[dshamer]

DKS, you won't get any sympathy from these guys. They bleed FORD blue and accept the short comings of FORD products. That's their choice, but they should not expect the rest of us to have such blind devotion to an obviously flawed manufactured product. I agree with you, in this day and age, every vehicle manufactured, be it FORD, GM, TOYOTA etc. should last 200,000 miles if properly maintained without any major driveline failure.

[dshamer]

Consumer report claims FORD EDGE has "much worse than average reliability" and "worse than average owner costs". "Owners ranked satisfaction lowest in its segment." So, DKS, it's not YOU that is at fault. It's your FORD EDGE.

[DKS]

dshamer, I like the car. I would like to buy another one when I replace this one. However, with the cost of repair that seems to almost a given, with little support from the factory, it adds $5000 to the cost of the car. Are they worth it?

[akirby]

Expecting 100% of all vehicles to go 200,000 miles without any problems is completely unrealistic. These are complicated machines and things break regardless of the mfr. If that's your expectation you will be continually disappointed. You're essentially expecting a 200,000 mile warranty.

 

You're also exagerrating what was said. We all acknowledge that Ford has engineering screwups - some worse than others. Some things they agree to either recall or extend the warranty to cover and others they don't. That's called making a BUSINESS DECISION and EVERY mfr does it, not just Ford.

 

When I buy a vehicle I choose the warranty I want (factory vs. extended) and I expect the mfr to meet the terms of that warranty - nothing more, nothing less. If you want 200,000 miles of warranty coverage then buy it up front because it hasn't been factored into the price you paid.

[akirby]

If you're really concerned about the PTU longevity you can add a drain plug and change your fluid periodically which seems to fix any problems.

[dshamer]

DKS, I own a 2009 Lincoln MKX, which is just a pimped out Ford Edge. I like my MKX too, just like you like your Edge. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect 200,000 miles ON THE MOTOR AND DRIVETRAIN WITHOUT MAJOR REPAIRS. AGAIN, IF THE VEHICLE IS PROPERLY MAINTAINED . (You are reading Kirby, but you are not comprehending) Of course, there will be problems along the way with any vehicle, but there should not be MAJOR REPAIRS. (Kirby, got it yet?)

 

Unfortunately, evidence is out there that shows that the FORD EDGE is not up to that task. Carcomplaints.com, has the 2008 EDGE as the year with the most complaints of the EDGE production years, and the number 1 complaint for the 2008 FORD EDGE, according to THEIR INFORMATION, is the transmission. I don't know how reliable that site is, but I don't have any reason to doub't that information at this time... just as I have no reason to doub't consumer reports.

 

I say this, where there is smoke there is fire.

 

PS I have a 1996 Toyota Tacoma 4 wheel drive with 250,000 miles. I've put a starter, an exhaust manifold, brake calipers, clutch etc. I expect repairs like that.

 

I have a 2001 Chevy S-10 with 210,000 miles. Replaced the complete exhaust system, alternator, ac compressor, radiator. All acceptable repairs.

 

Come on Kirby, get REAL! I DID NOT SAY I EXPECT 100% OF ALL VEHICLES TO MAKE IT TO THE 200,000 MILE MARK. THOSE ARE YOUR WORDS, NOT MINE. I DO EXPECT THE MAJORITY OF VEHICLES THAT ARE PROPERLY MAINTAINED TO REACH THAT GOAL. AND, I DO NOT EXPECT A 200,000 MILE WARRANTY. That's not what I am saying, and YOU know it.

 

No Kirby, not unrealistic. Maybe you should raise your expectations?

[akirby]

You said any vehicle that's properly maintained should last 200,000 miles with no major repairs and if repairs are required you think the mfr should pay for those.

 

That is a 200,000 mile powertrain warranty. And for any mfr to offer that type of warranty they'd have to raise the cost of the vehicle significantly.

 

My expectations are completely realistic and sometimes they get exceeded.

 

Your expectations are completely unrealistic and you will continually be disappointed regardless of which make or model you buy.

 

 

The part that irks me is that when you buy a vehicle the warranty is CLEARLY spelled out for you - we will cover X, Y and Z for this time period. It doesn't say we'll cover X, Y and Z and anything else that we engineered poorly. It's a legally binding contract. If you want more coverage you have to pay for it. What you want is more coverage without paying for it and from a business standpoint that's silly.

 

Would it be great if they covered more things with extended warranties? YES! Would I like it? YES! Would it help with customer satisfaction? YES!

Do I fault them for NOT always doing it? NO!

 

We clearly disagree on this point and I doubt either one of us will change our minds. So you believe whatever you want and I'll do the same.

[dshamer]

Kirby, you are delusional. No where in this thread will you find any statement that I posted that said that I think FORD or any car manufacturer should cover any car warranty for 200,000 miles. SHOW ME THE POST.

 

You are clearly making things up, or you are having trouble comprehending information. Which one is it?

[akirby]

Sorry - that was directed at DKS.

 

 

What I want Ford to do is own up and give people with those cars an extended warranty for 150, 200 thousand. Instead, they have just told us, "You are on your own.".

[DKS]

Airkirby, I am a little confused at what your comment was. Sorry. I also can only look a couple of times a day. A class full of sixth graders can keep one busy. In my opinion, cars should be designed and engineered now that can usually get to 150-200 K miles if they are well maintained. Along that trip, of course there are going to be failures. That should be, and I would, expect that. I don't expect any manufacturer to make all vehicles to be trouble free for 150K. I do have Kia agencies around here that give all buyers 200K, so it can be done. My issue is simple. Ford designed, engineered, and sold these vehicles and sold them at a premium price. They, and unfortunately, those of us who purchased them, discovered they under designed, and under engineered the transmission and the related 4wd parts. If they updated those parts in subsequent years, good on them. HOWEVER, they have also said to the rest of us who purchased, in good faith, the ones that broke easily and way too often. This car has been garaged every night. It had full synthetic oil every 5000 miles. I even paid the extra price to have that installed at the dealer so they could check the things that needed to be checked. FoMoCo could very easily help the people who bought the earlier models, because not only are we paying for the repairs, we are paying indirectly in a loss of resale value. Some guys bleed Ford, others GM, and others whatever. I get that. We know you are blue. I came over from GM and wanted to become blue. Their lack of support makes that highly unlikely. I can afford to buy what I want to buy. My wife has changed over the past two weeks to asking about GM cars instead of Edge/MKX. Fine, but how may cars will this cost Ford?

[akirby]

It's simple. Ford has determined that it's not worth the cost or hassle to extend the warranty on the PTU and transmission. Of course this will cost them a few customers which I'm sure they take into account when deciding whether or not to extend coverage. They have extended warranty coverage and even done vehicle buybacks for some problems in the past - it's a case by case decision.

 

What you think is a widespread problem probably only affects a very small percentage of vehicles overall taking into account how many Edges were actually sold.

 

If you think any manufacturer will cover all problems like this outside the factory warranty you're dreaming. They all make case by case decisions depending on what it costs them and how it affects sales. Some do more than others but nobody does 100%, because that would effectively be offering a free extended warranty on every vehicle and that type of cost would have to be added to the cost of the vehicle.

 

That 200K warranty on a KIA has been factored into the cost. It has to be. There is no free lunch - if it costs the mfr money then it's included in the price you pay up front.

 

The Edge MSRP only includes a 3/36 bumper to bumper and 5/60 powertrain. It doesn't matter whether it's a $20K vehicle or a $50K vehicle. A $100K Porsche still only has a 4 yr warranty and good luck getting them to cover something out of warranty.

 

If you're unhappy with how a particular problem was handled and you don't want another Ford that's completely understandable. But if you think you'll be treated differently with other mfrs you may be severely disappointed.

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

The PTU is definitely a major area of contention where Ford quality is concerned. As previously stated, there should be a drain plug, and there should be a service interval on it and the RDU, for best service life.

 

We can all cherrypick vehicles that last "forever" with no major repairs. People will quote you Mercedes D series that run for 1000000 miles with only 10 oil changes + cost of fuel. Is that representative of the entire population? No. I can quote you my dad's '97 Intrepid 3.3L, that is slowly falling apart at 140K (poor American quality as everyone knows), but has received regular maintenance. Not like new, but it has a heart of gold. Does that mean I would buy Dodge forever? No.

 

Having a long warranty from KIA doesn't mean you will get a quality part in the long run, that's been a marketing tool for a long time, up to you whether you fall for it.

 

Sometimes when you are on the bleeding edge of product introductions, you ARE taking a risk. If you bought a 2007 Edge new, no way to know what could happen at that time.

 

As for bleeding BLUE, not quite. RED/WHITE/BLUE maybe, but not just BLUE Seriously, I was a GM fan (still was until the whole 2008 thing), still like the products, just not the reliability in the long term. On average, Ford has done the best for me, so I stick with Ford. But I would not do without an extended warranty for sure, it is a lifesaver these days, with all the electronics and non-DIY parts/service involved.

[carguy75]

The PTU is definitely a major area of contention where Ford quality is concerned. As previously stated, there should be a drain plug, and there should be a service interval on it and the RDU, for best service life.

 

We can all cherrypick vehicles that last "forever" with no major repairs. People will quote you Mercedes D series that run for 1000000 miles with only 10 oil changes + cost of fuel. Is that representative of the entire population? No. I can quote you my dad's '97 Intrepid 3.3L, that is slowly falling apart at 140K (poor American quality as everyone knows), but has received regular maintenance. Not like new, but it has a heart of gold. Does that mean I would buy Dodge forever? No.

 

Having a long warranty from KIA doesn't mean you will get a quality part in the long run, that's been a marketing tool for a long time, up to you whether you fall for it.

 

Sometimes when you are on the bleeding edge of product introductions, you ARE taking a risk. If you bought a 2007 Edge new, no way to know what could happen at that time.

 

As for bleeding BLUE, not quite. RED/WHITE/BLUE maybe, but not just BLUE Seriously, I was a GM fan (still was until the whole 2008 thing), still like the products, just not the reliability in the long term. On average, Ford has done the best for me, so I stick with Ford. But I would not do without an extended warranty for sure, it is a lifesaver these days, with all the electronics and non-DIY parts/service involved.

+1 on needing an extended warranty on any make of car now of days due to all will have some kind of trouble area.

 

However, some makes have better components that others.

 

A person just has to do the research on a particular make before purchasing and learn what the known trouble areas are.

 

I found that car forums like this are the best place to get real world opinions about car.

 

No matter what anyone says, listen more to the complainers that ones that states their cars are trouble-free.

 

If I would have read this forum before buying my Edge I would have known about the common problems of the PTU(pre-2011) and AC condenser/transmission cooler leaks(I had to fix that soon after purchasing my Edge).

 

But like i mentioned earlier, every make i have owned over the years from GM to Mercedes had trouble areas.

 

Some are engine related and some was just electronic related(which can cost as much as an engine replacement to fix in Mercedes).

 

I agree with the original poster about there is no excuse for such unreliable key parts like the PTU being considered acceptable.

 

However, it seems like many components in modern cars are made to last only about 100k miles(or whenever they fail), unlike the engine which usually can go three times that.

 

So like I stated earlier a owner just have to do their best to buy a car that they can afford to keep running by doing some in-dept research before purchasing.

 

I have learned that recently with my Ford Edge.

 

I still love it!!!

 

But I know that I will have to do some preventive maintenance to keep it running the way it is now, no matter what Ford says about lifetime fluids.

 

FYI, I actually bought a new KIA Optima SXL turbo with standard 10/year100k mile power-train warranty and an additional 10year/100k mile power-train warranty provided by the dealer for no charge as incentive to but a new car from them, and i must say that it does give me a large peace of mind knowing that I will not have to spend any money on my drive train for 20 years/200k miles on the KIA.

 

However, the downside is that the power-train warranty do not cover anything else on the car.

 

So after 5year/60k miles(bumper-to-bumper coverage) then I will probably still trade it in if the non-dive-train components turn out to be junk.

 

This is my first Korean car, so time will tell if it will be my last.

 

Sorry to talk about my KIA, but you brought up the KIA warranty as a marketing tool, and you are right because it helped convince me to try one even though the KIA brand used to be junk a decade ago.

Edited August 29, 2015 by carguy75

[DKS]

Friday afternoon I spoke with the transmission shop. He asked me to reiterate what had transpired when the main failure occurred. After I told him he said that is what he thought the issue was. He had torn down the transmission and found at least one broken clip. He commented that he had looked on the internet to get an idea what the issues with that transmission have been. He commented that Ford has had a great deal of trouble with this transmission and much more than normal. We are rebuilding it as it is less expensive than a new one and in his opinion with all of the trouble it has had, there is no reason to think a new one is any better.

The PTU on the car is new. It just came from Ford. They still are not putting a drain plug on it, so they must not be convinced, or they don't care, that one is needed. They come from the dealer closed up with fluid in them. My new one was low on fluid and the shop had to add fluid to it.

I still go back to my original point. If the early models, and the used car buyers guides don't show this to be only an early model issue, have such a high failure rate, Ford needs to do the right thing for customers.

[carguy75]

Friday afternoon I spoke with the transmission shop. He asked me to reiterate what had transpired when the main failure occurred. After I told him he said that is what he thought the issue was. He had torn down the transmission and found at least one broken clip. He commented that he had looked on the internet to get an idea what the issues with that transmission have been. He commented that Ford has had a great deal of trouble with this transmission and much more than normal. We are rebuilding it as it is less expensive than a new one and in his opinion with all of the trouble it has had, there is no reason to think a new one is any better.

The PTU on the car is new. It just came from Ford. They still are not putting a drain plug on it, so they must not be convinced, or they don't care, that one is needed. They come from the dealer closed up with fluid in them. My new one was low on fluid and the shop had to add fluid to it.

I still go back to my original point. If the early models, and the used car buyers guides don't show this to be only an early model issue, have such a high failure rate, Ford needs to do the right thing for customers.

I do not know what Ford is doing QA wise when it comes to filling up these filled-for-life components like the PTU and automatic transmission, but what I do know is that I believe that my components stand a better chance if I change the fluids in both every 30k miles or so.

 

For two reasons, to check and confirm the fluid levels and to keep fresh lubricating fluids circulating in the units.

 

I was hoping that Ford have redesigned the 2011 on up PTU and transmission components better, but that may just wishful thinking on my part.

 

However, at-least the 3.5 engine seems very sound in the Edge unlike most Nissan/Infiniti engines that burn oil around 80k miles and only gets worst pass 100k miles.

 

Mercedes E-class 4matic(AWD) system can develops a leaky seal where the drive-shaft joins the transmission, very expensive fix if you do not catch it in time before the transmission is damaged!!!

 

Even Subaru have loose steering rack issues in some of their 2010-2013 Outback cars that plaque owners, among other issues.

 

So Ford is not alone when it comes to having faulty components on the cars, nor the most expensive to repair.

 

However, i know that it does not make your situation any better knowing Ford is not the only one putting out crappy parts.

 

I really do feel your pain and understand your frustration.

 

I have been where you are at a few times over the years.

 

Hence why I am changing out my fluids early in all my cars, or even if not recommended by the manufacturer.

Edited August 31, 2015 by carguy75

[carguy75]

 

Edited August 31, 2015 by carguy75

[DKS]

carguy75, you kind of hit it on the head. I had a friend who is a big Ford guy, and has defended them to me tell me that his transmission engineer friend told him the design them to last 150K miles. If most of them got to them, I would not have a beef. However, way to many of them do not get to that point, or even half of that point. That is why they ought to own up.