Crazynewf Posted August 21, 2015 Report Share Posted August 21, 2015 (edited) Just installed the TRS 9012 kit into my 2013 Ford Edge with the capacitor kit, but now the DRL don't work in auto mode. It appears the Orange driving lights and the vertical LEDs are on during the auto mode so I'm wondering if the DRL mode might be automatically switched. Can anyone chime in on this with some advise. Edited August 21, 2015 by Crazynewf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWWPerfA_ZN0W Posted August 21, 2015 Report Share Posted August 21, 2015 35W lights or 55W? 55W will definitely need the relay kit that feeds power directly from the battery. Or I guess you could use an AddAFuse kit or something similar to an empty underhood fusebox slot and separate out the left/right lights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazynewf Posted August 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2015 They are 35w lights and the relay kit is installed. The lights work in the on position but now in the auto position my vertical LEDs and orange driving lights come on as DRL in place of the new HIDs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWizard Posted August 21, 2015 Report Share Posted August 21, 2015 If you converted a Canadian halogen headlight configuration to HID without having the DRLs switched to the running lights by the dealer then you are going to have problems. That's because the factory configuration runs the halogen headlights at reduced voltage using pulse width modulation (PWM). That's fine for normal incandescent bulbs but PWM will not usually trip the relay to power the HID ballasts. Actually, you're lucky you installed the relay kit because connecting PWM power directly to HID ballasts can destroy them in short order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazynewf Posted August 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2015 (edited) If you converted a Canadian halogen headlight configuration to HID without having the DRLs switched to the running lights by the dealer then you are going to have problems. That's because the factory configuration runs the halogen headlights at reduced voltage using pulse width modulation (PWM). That's fine for normal incandescent bulbs but PWM will not usually trip the relay to power the HID ballasts. Actually, you're lucky you installed the relay kit because connecting PWM power directly to HID ballasts can destroy them in short order.[/quote The only worry with PWM would be the life of the relay and due to the choppy voltage the relay would be noisy all the time. The capacitor kit I installed in series with the relay coil and the stock voltage will look after this. The ballasts are getting clean DC via the battery through the relay. What has got me baffled is how the car has switched to the running lights without have the dealer do it. Why would I have problems with this set-up? Edited August 21, 2015 by Crazynewf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWizard Posted August 22, 2015 Report Share Posted August 22, 2015 Not exactly. Relays are analog devices and PWM switches voltage much faster than the relay coil could react so the relay is really only "seeing" the reduced average voltage (in the same way as filaments in an incandescent bulb). That average voltage can be too low to energize the coil and trip the relay. Most relays will operate down to about nine volts but a 60% duty cycle on the PWM brings the average voltage down to around eight volts. It's easy enough to test... just use a voltmeter or test light to check for power output from the relay terminal opposite the power input (30 or 87 depending on how the relay is connected). As for the running lights, I really don't have an answer. I suspect that somewhere current is back-feeding through a common ground but it would take some troubleshooting with a meter to confirm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazynewf Posted August 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2015 Not exactly. Relays are analog devices and PWM switches voltage much faster than the relay coil could react so the relay is really only "seeing" the reduced average voltage (in the same way as filaments in an incandescent bulb). That average voltage can be too low to energize the coil and trip the relay. Most relays will operate down to about nine volts but a 60% duty cycle on the PWM brings the average voltage down to around eight volts. It's easy enough to test... just use a voltmeter or test light to check for power output from the relay terminal opposite the power input (30 or 87 depending on how the relay is connected). As for the running lights, I really don't have an answer. I suspect that somewhere current is back-feeding through a common ground but it would take some troubleshooting with a meter to confirm. I want to thank you for your input and will measure the output voltage on the capacitor just to see what I'm getting for the relay input. Just so happens I'm an electrical technologist and deal with PWM all the time in the VFD's I work with but wanted to get your input since I don't work on automobile systems that often. PWM does not have any bearing on the value of voltage that a system generates just the times or frequency at which it is generated and thus how clean or flat the voltage source is as it pertains to DC voltage in the case of an automobile. Of course the cable can also have a bearing on the amount of voltage if it's AC current we are dealing with and hysteresis comes into play. The voltage that the relay is seeing in this setup is generated by an alternator as a AC current and a rectifier converts it to DC and thus the PWM, however if the car is not running the voltage is directly from the battery and the rectifier is not in the circuit. The thing I'm most confused about is why the DRL method that switched. It actually works out better since the HID's are not always on, so it's more just for my curiosity that I want to figure it out. I will look into the ground issue you mentioned to see if that is a factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWizard Posted August 22, 2015 Report Share Posted August 22, 2015 You're trying to apply AC circuit thinking to a DC circuit. Everything in a car is DC except the internals of the alternator. In a DC circuit like in a car, PWM rapidly switches between full voltage and zero voltage output producing an average voltage that is less than the system voltage by a percentage directly related to the duty cycle of the PWM. This is used to reduce the brightness of halogen headlights when they are used as DRLs because the bulb filament doesn't respond to the rapidly changing individual pulses, it just "sees" the overall average voltage. LEDs and digital HID ballasts are fast enough to actually react to the individual pulses but that's not the issue here because you installed a relay in between. The coil of the relay is, in essence, a resistor just like the filament of a bulb. It is not fast enough to respond to the individual pulses of the PWM but it does respond to the average voltage. If that average voltage is too low to energize the coil enough to overcome the spring tension on the relay switch terminals then the relay will not trip and you will get no output. You can go ahead and measure the output of your capacitor if you want but the real telling measurement is the relay output. For all you know, the relay itself may be bad. You can't assume that just because you have input power to the relay that it is outputting power to the ballast. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazynewf Posted August 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2015 You're trying to apply AC circuit thinking to a DC circuit. Everything in a car is DC except the internals of the alternator. In a DC circuit like in a car, PWM rapidly switches between full voltage and zero voltage output producing an average voltage that is less than the system voltage by a percentage directly related to the duty cycle of the PWM. This is used to reduce the brightness of halogen headlights when they are used as DRLs because the bulb filament doesn't respond to the rapidly changing individual pulses, it just "sees" the overall average voltage. LEDs and digital HID ballasts are fast enough to actually react to the individual pulses but that's not the issue here because you installed a relay in between. The coil of the relay is, in essence, a resistor just like the filament of a bulb. It is not fast enough to respond to the individual pulses of the PWM but it does respond to the average voltage. If that average voltage is too low to energize the coil enough to overcome the spring tension on the relay switch terminals then the relay will not trip and you will get no output. You can go ahead and measure the output of your capacitor if you want but the real telling measurement is the relay output. For all you know, the relay itself may be bad. You can't assume that just because you have input power to the relay that it is outputting power to the ballast. The output of the relay will always be 12VDC that comes directly from the battery terminal. The coil in the relay is connected to OEM light output with a Capacitior in parallel with the positive leg. The relay contacts that pass the current through are attached to an armature that is moved when the coil is energized and magnetic flux is what causes the armature to move and closes the contacts. The current entering the relay via the OEM light output and the current running the ballasts are completely isolated from each other. If the coil in the relay were to fail or not operate due to low voltage then the HID lights would not come on. According to The Retrofit Source they have supplied many systems like this and have operated the coil of their relays via the method I have described without issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWizard Posted August 22, 2015 Report Share Posted August 22, 2015 (edited) Okay, now I don't know if I'm really that bad at explaining troubleshooting suggestions or you're just being deliberately obtuse. I got my degree in electronics probably before you were born and I am well aware of how a relay works. You seem to have missed a basic tenet of troubleshooting - never assume anything. You seem to think that just because you've been told that this configuration always works for the supplier that it could not possibly fail in your particular case. My suggestion is to use your meter with the headlight switch in the auto position to actually test whether you have output power from the relay going to the HID ballast. But you go ahead and just assume what you want and keep wondering why things aren't working. In the time it took you to read this, you could have already tested it. Edited August 23, 2015 by TheWizard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazynewf Posted August 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 Sorry if I came across the wrong way but your suggestions just seem rudimentary. I've been working in the electrical field for 23 years, and though I admit not to understand the electronic side of things many, of the same principals apply. The voltage at the input of the ballast must be 12VDC, how can it be anything different. Other then the contacts and the wire from the battery there is nothing else to create voltage drop so it must be what the battery is putting out. Are we not on the same page with this? That's the reason I find this troubleshooting recommendation odd, unless I'm missing something. I mean no disrespect and appreciate your feedback and input. I've got some troubleshooting procedures in mind but they pertain mainly to trying to figure out why the DRL lighting switched. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazynewf Posted August 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 (edited) . Edited August 23, 2015 by Crazynewf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWizard Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 Sorry, what I meant was to test that you have output from the relay... not a particular voltage output but any output at all. The idea is to test that the relay is actually tripping with the reduced voltage across the coil and thus providing power to the ballast. Some relays can be sensitive to voltage levels across the coil and sometimes relays just don't work reliably at all. It's always worth testing and eliminating that basic possibility before getting into deeper troubleshooting. I guess my discussion of lowered voltage at the relay coil due to PWM led you to think lowered voltage on the output side when what I really meant was a power/no power check of the relay output. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazynewf Posted August 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 (edited) Sorry, what I meant was to test that you have output from the relay... not a particular voltage output but any output at all. The idea is to test that the relay is actually tripping with the reduced voltage across the coil and thus providing power to the ballast. Some relays can be sensitive to voltage levels across the coil and sometimes relays just don't work reliably at all. It's always worth testing and eliminating that basic possibility before getting into deeper troubleshooting. I guess my discussion of lowered voltage at the relay coil due to PWM led you to think lowered voltage on the output side when what I really meant was a power/no power check of the relay output. Sorry...but I thought that I mentioned that the lights are working perfectly. I've used them for the past two nights and the improvement over the stock 9012's is truly amazing. I will in fact still test the coil triggering voltage just to see what I got. I may even get an oscilloscope to get a proper reading if I'm not happy with what my multimeter can give me. For now the thing I want to figure out the most is why the DRL mode changed. Because it's not hard to do, I'm going to connect up the stock 9012's just via the loose wires (not inserted in the lamp housing) to see if the work the way they used to. If they do then I will surmise that Ford has a safety override built in that causes the DRL mode to change should both headlamps fail at the same time and that thought makes sense to me. I don't think the relay coil would represent the same load as the stock 9012 so as I'm surmising right now the vehicle computer is recognizing it as no headlights being present. I might even try just adding one OEM 9012 to the empty socket to see if that might change things up. Will report back and let you know how things go. Edited August 23, 2015 by Crazynewf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExNascarDood Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 FWIW, I converted my '13 SEL from stock headlights to HID's and my Edge uses my headlights as DRL's. The jey was to add an extra moduel to the setup that ran me about $50. The local car audio buy where I live and has done installs in my past couple of vehicles did this work for me. Charged me $125 for the HID's and $50 for "the module". Have been running them 2 1/2 months with no problem at all and I'm very happy with them. My HID's are 35 watt as well. Hope this helps ....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazynewf Posted August 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 (edited) FWIW, I converted my '13 SEL from stock headlights to HID's and my Edge uses my headlights as DRL's. The jey was to add an extra moduel to the setup that ran me about $50. The local car audio buy where I live and has done installs in my past couple of vehicles did this work for me. Charged me $125 for the HID's and $50 for "the module". Have been running them 2 1/2 months with no problem at all and I'm very happy with them. My HID's are 35 watt as well. Hope this helps ....... I have a couple of questions... 1. Was the kit you had installed the Morimoto Elite kit from The Retrofit Source? 2.What exactly is this module and where is it installed. I actually don't want to run my HID's as DRL's since they will dramatically reduce their life. I'm more curious to find out why the system reverted to the other method of DRL. The module you added might shed some light on this. Edited August 23, 2015 by Crazynewf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazynewf Posted August 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 So after some trouble shooting today I was able to figure out what my problem was. Was talking to a mechanic friend today and he told me that in some cars today they switch the negative, so sure enough after I flipped the wires coming into the capacitor form the OEM output, during the operation of the DRL circuit the capacitor operated properly and thus the relay can now fire when the reduced voltage for the DRL is being utilized. What I actually thought were the DRL lights coming on before were actually the lights that are on when the car was in park. I made the assumption that because the vertical LEDs were on during the day that this was now my DRL set up working. I thought the vertical DRLs only operated at night. The other thing that got me confused was I actually never saw what lights were on while the car is in park because I never had an incident where I got out of the car while it was running and in park. I want to thank The Wizard for his input on my issue. The debate we had kept me thinking and his recommendations helped with the trouble shooting. I'm thinking the module that ExNascarDood had added to his setup was the capacitor because without that the relay won't fire in DRL operation. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWWPerfA_ZN0W Posted August 24, 2015 Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 Good ole polarity! It'd be so much easier if something just didn't work rather than look like it was, but different Good to know info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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