Ford disputes/refutes "stop sale" on new Edge due to water leak in cabin

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

Frankly, it's pretty heartbreaking to see what is going on at Ford and what is happening with their customer base because of these incidents. I am sure they are trying to get the process fixed, not just the problem vehicles, I hope calmer waters will be here soon.

[WingNut]

Name another car company who had such a problem and agreed to voluntarily replace customer vehicles with a free $2500 upgrade without a government recall forcing it? I think it's pretty rare.

 

Not saying Ford is without fault here - far from it. But give credit where it's due.

 

Give credit to a company who builds a defective product and takes that product back?

 

Is this how complacent we have become?

 

If I build a product, and it has a failure like this, my customer should not expect anything less than a replacement at no cost to them. I don't care if it is a car, a chair, or a filing cabinet.

 

It seems so many people give them too much slack because they are building cars. Which are expensive and complex machines. But they forget people are paying ~$40k for these vehicles.....they should never, ever leak water. Ever. And if they do, they should be returned and salvaged.

 

I guess my take on Customer Satisfaction is different than most. I would never allow one of my customers to just deal with a product that I didn't build to spec.

[Waldo]

That story doesn't make a lot of sense to me, the issue with the water leak isn't really related to any issues with the Advance trac or steering. Also the only buyback programs I'm aware of are for vehicles that have severe water damage. There must be something going on here between the dealer and Ford, because the facts in the story don't add up.

[akirby]

 

Give credit to a company who builds a defective product and takes that product back?

 

Is this how complacent we have become?

 

If I build a product, and it has a failure like this, my customer should not expect anything less than a replacement at no cost to them. I don't care if it is a car, a chair, or a filing cabinet.

 

It seems so many people give them too much slack because they are building cars. Which are expensive and complex machines. But they forget people are paying ~$40k for these vehicles.....they should never, ever leak water. Ever. And if they do, they should be returned and salvaged.

 

I guess my take on Customer Satisfaction is different than most. I would never allow one of my customers to just deal with a product that I didn't build to spec.

 

 

Warranties only provide repair of damaged vehicles, not replacement. Mfrs rarely replace entire vehicles outside of lemon law proceedings because it's not necessary in most cases and it's really expensive. You can stand behind your product by repairing defects. And it is orders of magnitude more easy to replace a $300 chair than a $40K vehicle.

 

Your expectations for warranty service are simply not realistic unless you're willing to pay a big premium for that type of service.

 

The next time you have a fender bender tell the insurance company you want a new replacement vehicle and see how far that goes.

 

I'm not applauding Ford here at all - this type of factory defect should never happen to this degree. But I give them credit for stepping up with proactive vehicle replacements where it's warranted because they did not have to do that - they could have simply repaired the vehicles and called it a day.

[xbillmh]

Fortunately, I never took delivery of my Edge that was manufactured in at the beginning off July. My dealership readily agreed that since the factory was never willing to ship it, due to water leak problems, and since my order was 15 weeks old already, I could cancel and my deposit would be returned. Now getting my deposit back from the dealership is turning into a nightmare. Nobody there is disputing that I am owed the money, they just can't seem to actually get the check cut. There seems to be an increcible amount of inertia involved in getting Ford dealerships to do anything. I have never had any particularly bad experiences with car buying or service before this Edge nightmare. One lesson here is always put a deposit to buy a car on a cerdit card - never a check or cash. That way, if there is an issue, you can simply have your credit card company deal with it.

[torquer]

Fortunately, I never took delivery of my Edge that was manufactured in at the beginning off July. My dealership readily agreed that since the factory was never willing to ship it, due to water leak problems, and since my order was 15 weeks old already, I could cancel and my deposit would be returned. Now getting my deposit back from the dealership is turning into a nightmare. Nobody there is disputing that I am owed the money, they just can't seem to actually get the check cut. There seems to be an increcible amount of inertia involved in getting Ford dealerships to do anything. I have never had any particularly bad experiences with car buying or service before this Edge nightmare. One lesson here is always put a deposit to buy a car on a cerdit card - never a check or cash. That way, if there is an issue, you can simply have your credit card company deal with it.

 

 

The whole dealership model is really fascinating (not necessarily in a good way) from a financial perspective. Most people don't know that dealerships are cash poor most of the time, which is why it is almost always a pain to get them to give you money when it is owed unless they are a large dealership and even then it is not easy.

 

For most dealerships, they don't own many/any of the cars on their lot. They have financing agreements with the factories or large used car consortiums which allow them to keep the cars on the lot without paying for them in advance. They pay mostly on commission and the rest of the staff is often underpaid. And when it comes to service, they will fight like tooth and nail not to do warranty work if they can avoid it because they don't get paid as well by the factory and are kept to hard limits on work times, costing, etc.

 

Not all dealerships are like this, but many are (especially small ones). As shocking as it may sound, I would be surprised if they actually don't have your money. It was already spent and now they are trying to figure out how to pay you back, assuming your deposit was significant.

[xbillmh]

 

 

The whole dealership model is really fascinating (not necessarily in a good way) from a financial perspective. Most people don't know that dealerships are cash poor most of the time, which is why it is almost always a pain to get them to give you money when it is owed unless they are a large dealership and even then it is not easy.

 

For most dealerships, they don't own many/any of the cars on their lot. They have financing agreements with the factories or large used car consortiums which allow them to keep the cars on the lot without paying for them in advance. They pay mostly on commission and the rest of the staff is often underpaid. And when it comes to service, they will fight like tooth and nail not to do warranty work if they can avoid it because they don't get paid as well by the factory and are kept to hard limits on work times, costing, etc.

 

Not all dealerships are like this, but many are (especially small ones). As shocking as it may sound, I would be surprised if they actually don't have your money. It was already spent and now they are trying to figure out how to pay you back, assuming your deposit was significant.

Only $1,000, that is the sad thing. For that little money, why make someone mad?

[akirby]

BTW - I think Ford should buy back vehicles that had excessive leaks. But the fact remains they aren't under any legal obligation to do so outside of lemon laws. I'm just glad they're doing it without forcing people to resort to lemon laws or other legal proceedings.

 

They still screwed up here - big time. And these problems are becoming a trend and that's not good.

[WingNut]

 

 

Warranties only provide repair of damaged vehicles, not replacement. Mfrs rarely replace entire vehicles outside of lemon law proceedings because it's not necessary in most cases and it's really expensive. You can stand behind your product by repairing defects. And it is orders of magnitude more easy to replace a $300 chair than a $40K vehicle.

 

Your expectations for warranty service are simply not realistic unless you're willing to pay a big premium for that type of service.

 

The next time you have a fender bender tell the insurance company you want a new replacement vehicle and see how far that goes.

 

I'm not applauding Ford here at all - this type of factory defect should never happen to this degree. But I give them credit for stepping up with proactive vehicle replacements where it's warranted because they did not have to do that - they could have simply repaired the vehicles and called it a day.

 

Apples/Oranges.

 

1. Factory defect that results in water leaking in to the cabin and pooling

 

2. Simple warranty fixes (i.e. Wiper Fluid Pump stops working)

 

3. Accident

[Waldo]

 

Apples/Oranges.

 

1. Factory defect that results in water leaking in to the cabin and pooling

 

2. Simple warranty fixes (i.e. Wiper Fluid Pump stops working)

 

3. Accident

 

I'm not quite sure what you're arguing, For the cases where the water has pooled up and caused damage that can't be repaired, Ford has put a buy-back program in place. But not every car that has the defect has the result of water pooling up and causing damage, so Ford has put some reasonable "filters" in place to figure out which cars should be replaced and which ones can be fixed.

 

Are you suggesting that every single Edge built with the missing sealer should be bought back? Even ones that haven't even been out in the rain? Even ones that had just a few small drops get into the carpet and have had their carpet replaced?

 

I once (or twice) left my Miata out in the rain with the roof open. I didn't expect anyone to buy it back. The world doesn't end if a little water gets inside a car.

[akirby]

That seems to be what he's expecting and it's completely unreasonable if the vehicle is repairable.

 

BTW Wingnut - your new car "warranty" is nothing more than an insurance policy. They work exactly the same way. You pay a certain amount for a certain level of coverage for a specific time with specific remedies. If you want more coverage you have to pay more whether it's a separate charge or it's included in the price of the vehicle. That's one reason Lincolns cost more than Fords - the warranty is longer.

[WingNut]

 

I'm not quite sure what you're arguing, For the cases where the water has pooled up and caused damage that can't be repaired, Ford has put a buy-back program in place. But not every car that has the defect has the result of water pooling up and causing damage, so Ford has put some reasonable "filters" in place to figure out which cars should be replaced and which ones can be fixed.

 

Are you suggesting that every single Edge built with the missing sealer should be bought back? Even ones that haven't even been out in the rain? Even ones that had just a few small drops get into the carpet and have had their carpet replaced?

 

I once (or twice) left my Miata out in the rain with the roof open. I didn't expect anyone to buy it back. The world doesn't end if a little water gets inside a car.

 

Not every car that had pooling is getting a buy back. Go read the posts about guys in Canada that are waiting more than a month with nothing but a rental car. No clear communication from Ford about what is going on with parts or their brand new car that is sitting on a dealer's service lot waiting.

 

If the car leaked and had enough water in it to make the carpet soggy, it is defective and Ford should buy them back.

 

A few drops? Tell me how you measure "a few drops". If you have paid attention to this issue, nobody was complaining about a few drops in their car. They were coming out to soggy carpets and must smells. That is unacceptable in a new car and no owner should have to deal with something like the being repaired.

 

I'm happy to see Ford has stepped up. I hope the guys in Canada get the same resolution instead of being put off while making payments on a car waiting for carpet.

[WingNut]

That seems to be what he's expecting and it's completely unreasonable if the vehicle is repairable.

 

BTW Wingnut - your new car "warranty" is nothing more than an insurance policy. They work exactly the same way. You pay a certain amount for a certain level of coverage for a specific time with specific remedies. If you want more coverage you have to pay more whether it's a separate charge or it's included in the price of the vehicle. That's one reason Lincolns cost more than Fords - the warranty is longer.

 

Why do you keep talking about a warranty? This is not a breakdown. This is a defect in their manufacturing. It is one thing to install something correctly and it fails. It is another to not build something to spec and sell it.

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

In at least a few cases, the water leaks also led to compromised electronics.

[cds71]

Im from Canada, and my wife and I are in the process of a buy back and getting a replacement Edge sport.....we had a lake in our sport and lots of musty smelling mold and lots of electronic issues....it took the dealer and Regional CS 2 weeks to determine if we qualified for the buy back.....we did, so Im glad its been almost resolved for us.....I sure hope everyone else gets the fair treatment that we received.

[Waldo]

 

Why do you keep talking about a warranty? This is not a breakdown. This is a defect in their manufacturing. It is one thing to install something correctly and it fails. It is another to not build something to spec and sell it.

 

But every failure that is covered under warranty is a manufacturing defect. That's pretty much exactly what a warranty is, it covers parts that "fail during normal use during the applicable coverage period due to a manufacturing defect or factory workmanship" (quote from the warranty guide book). If Ford (and its suppliers) built everything to spec every time, there would never be a failure of anything ever.

The only difference in this case is that the defect causes a lot of other damage, but again that's nothing new either. A defective lug nut can cause a wheel to fall off which would cause damage to the suspension and maybe even the fenders. Would you expect Ford to buy back a vehicle in that case? A defective oil pump can cause a complete engine failure, would you expect Ford to buy back a vehicle in that case?

There is absolutely no reason that some vehicles that had wet carpet can't just have the carpet replaced and be perfectly fine for the rest of their useful life. There are others that have mold and electrical problems like cds71 and a buy back is the only logical recourse. But there is a line somewhere in the middle where repairing a vehicle is a perfectly acceptable solution, the tough part is determining which vehicles fall into which category, that's the part that is causing some people some delays.

[WingNut]

 

But every failure that is covered under warranty is a manufacturing defect. That's pretty much exactly what a warranty is, it covers parts that "fail during normal use during the applicable coverage period due to a manufacturing defect or factory workmanship" (quote from the warranty guide book). If Ford (and its suppliers) built everything to spec every time, there would never be a failure of anything ever.

The only difference in this case is that the defect causes a lot of other damage, but again that's nothing new either. A defective lug nut can cause a wheel to fall off which would cause damage to the suspension and maybe even the fenders. Would you expect Ford to buy back a vehicle in that case? A defective oil pump can cause a complete engine failure, would you expect Ford to buy back a vehicle in that case?

There is absolutely no reason that some vehicles that had wet carpet can't just have the carpet replaced and be perfectly fine for the rest of their useful life. There are others that have mold and electrical problems like cds71 and a buy back is the only logical recourse. But there is a line somewhere in the middle where repairing a vehicle is a perfectly acceptable solution, the tough part is determining which vehicles fall into which category, that's the part that is causing some people some delays.

 

I agree...it is too hard to tell which will have long term affects (rust / electrical) and which will not. And that is why I feel any that had pooling water should be bought back.