Dishonest California Ford Dealer Warning

[Craigtaz]

Just a warning to fellow forum members who may live in the Southern California area. I just purchased a new 2014 Ford Edge from Sunrise Ford in Fontana, California. This was by far the most horrible car buying experience I have ever endured. It was so bad that I am currently speaking with legal counsel regarding my options.

Although I love my new Edge, Sunrise Ford is appalling. The sales manager that I dealt with lied to my face about my trade-in value as well as my payments. This behavior carried over to the finance department where I was lied to about the manner in which I purchased the Ford extended service plan.

If you live in the area and a new or used Ford is in your future, please save yourself the heartache and shop elsewhere.

[akirby]

What exactly did they lie about?

[Larry]

Normally it doesn't take long to see that you and sales staff aren't going to get along. That's when you pick up your marbles and go play somewhere else. I've found that most dealers and or their staff aren't out and out liars but try not to divulge much information. The best way is to do your homework before going to the dealer. If you know the answers to the questions you are going to ask it won't take long to decide if you want to shop there.

 

Larry

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

Are there multiple Sunrise Ford dealerships in CA? There is at least one person with positive experience with the one in North Hollywood.

 

EDIT: Obviously purchasing is a very personal experience, but here is the Dealerrater info on Ford dealerships in CA:

http://www.dealerrater.com/directory/California/Ford/?typedCriteria=california

Edited April 16, 2015 by WWWPerfA_ZN0W

[akirby]

The only way they could really lie about the trade-in value is if they gave you a trade-in apprasial, you accepted it and they changed it in the paperwork.

 

If you're saying he quoted you a high trade-in and low payments but that changed when they started putting real numbers to paper, that's just normal advertising practices. Your car could be worth up to X and your payments could be as low as Y.

 

You really need to know all of that before you go in includng available incentives and your own financing rate.

 

Now if they actually changed the numbers after you agreed or added things you didn't agree on then that's a different story, although even then you're really responsible to catch that and not let it happen.

[rwf78155]

Sound like you went in to the dealership unprepared.

When I go in I have all the numbers in my head and if the dealer cant match them.....On to the next dealer !

Maay take some time and work but Ive never failed to find a dealer wanting to make a sale .

[SoCalGlide]

That's too bad, though I've not bought from Sunrise, they are very supportive of the SoCal Powerstroke club and have hosted many events for them.

 

On the flip side, we had a great buying experience last weekend at Ford of Ventura. Like others alluded to, you need to do your homework and crunch the numbers before you go in. I knew what I was willing to pay, what I wanted and could reasonably expect for our trade-in, and what additional cash we could put down. I did the math, came up with the monthly payment based on the net price I wanted to pay. This plays right into what they want to hear. I told them what we wanted to pay, and let them juggle the numbers any way they saw fit. They made a couple attempts to get more, that's their job, but we got what we wanted and more. From the time we were greeted on the lot until we closed the sale we didn't feel uncomfortable, stressed, or unduly pressured.

 

It doesn't hurt that there are a boatload of 2014's on lots in SoCal, with the 2015's coming.

[Craigtaz]

Sound like you went in to the dealership unprepared

 

That would be a wrong assumption. I knew what I wanted to pay, what I wanted my payments to be at, the length of the loan and I knew what I wanted for my trade-in. The only exact figure I didn't have was my trade-in payoff, but I was very close.

 

This post is regarding Sunrise Ford in Fontana, not Hollywood. I was told they are owned by the same people

For starters, when I called and told the sales manager that I was looking for a 2015 Titanium or a 2014 Limited, I was told they had plenty of both. He told me they had ten 2015 models and over one hundred 2014's in stock. This was just to lure me in. They actually had only two 2015's (neither a Titanium), and around fifty 2014's (only two of those were Limited models). Lie #1. Shame on me, I should have left right there and then.

After agreeing to a deal on a 2014, my payment amount changed from the sales manager's handshake to my sit-down with the finance manager. Lie #2.

I told the sales manager the payoff of my trade-in was between $12K and $12.5K. He wrote down the lesser of the two figures, so when my payoff of $12,597 was obtained two days later, I was told I was responsible for the difference.

I had the finance manager charge my credit card for my Ford ESP purchase, so that I could cancel it later if I decided to. When I was told that I must now cover the payoff shortage, I told the sales manager to cancel my ESP and refund my credit card. I would then pay them from the refund. I was then informed that my ESP purchase was worked into the financing and that my credit card charge was treated as a down payment. This meant that any refund would come off at the end of my car loan - I would get no immediate refund. This really angered me. This was the very reason I gave them my credit card in the first place!

I am sure there are good honest people at Sunrise Ford, I just didn't have the benefit of dealing with any of them. I have filed a complaint with the BBB and I have filed a dispute with MasterCard for the ESP charge.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Craigtaz

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

Financing is usually where it falls apart most often, IMHO. You do have to question every number they write down (orally means nothing, commitment to paper is everything), but even then it may not work out. Financing is where the dealership makes money.

[Waldo]

I don't understand why you're upset about the credit card issue, that seems like normal business to me. It's true that the financing does not treat the purchase separately from the ESP, so the dealer sounds perfectly legit in their statement about that. Now I would think a good dealer could still work with you to re-arrange everything, but I think they are well within their rights to consider that a deposit. I've used my credit card for deposits on all five of my most recent car purchases (never had an ESP with any of them).

[akirby]

You're probably SOL from a legal standpoint assuming the paperwork was done correctly including how the down payment was handled.

 

You really need to take this as a learning experience so you don't let this happen again. We've all been through it to some degree or another.

 

Don't EVER believe anything you're told. You can check the dealer's inventory online through ford.com. A few vehicles could already be sold or a few may not be on the lot yet but it will give you the maximum possible vehicles that the dealer could have on their lot, and you can find the ones that interest you based on color, price, features, models, etc. If they tell you they have 100 but you only see 50, cross them off your list.

 

You should have known exactly what your loan payoff was. One call to the bank/credit union would give you that. Don't leave it up to the dealership to guess. They're correct that you owe the balance. It's no different than selling your car to a private party for less than you owe the bank - it's your loan and you have to pay it off. Had they shown the payoff as $12.5K and it was only $12K you would have gotten $500 back (unless they decided to just keep it and not tell you - depends on the paperwork). Bottom line - know your payoff.

 

This is probably the most important lesson - NEVER negotiate payments on a financed purchase. Figure out how much the vehicle you want is going to cost. Look up the invoice pricing online, add the destination charge plus $500 then deduct any factory rebates. That's going to be your price give or take a few hundred bucks. Line up your own financing and determine the payment range. Negotiate the price of the vehicle and your trade-in value telling them you have your own financing or will be paying cash. Once you make the deal on the price, ask them for their financing offers and compare that with what you already have lined up. Sometimes there may be extra rebates to take the ford financing. Beware of non-Ford financing - the dealer usually gets kickbacks from those and therefore they may try to push higher rates.

 

Finally - read the paperwork carefully. Whatever you sign in writing trumps anything they may have told you. Check the individual items, look for added fees. More importantly make sure the bottom line cost of the vehicle matches what you negotiated and that nothing else was added that you didn't request other than tax, tag and title fees.

[Craigtaz]

I don't understand why you're upset about the credit card issue

Perhaps it's because I told them to handle the transaction one way and they did it another way that has me upset. They obviously did it that way so that it would be unfavorable for a customer to cancel an ESP. This was exactly the reason I put it on my card.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Craigtaz

[Craigtaz]

Please don’t take this the wrong way folks, but there’s a reason my initial post was somewhat vague. I knew there would be people that would say this was my fault, I was unprepared or I should have done my home work. I am 50 years old, I have bought my share of cars over the years. This wasn’t my first rodeo. I posted this thread only to warn the kind members of this forum, nothing more. Please feel free to accept my warning or disregard it, it’s clearly your choice, but I don’t wish to debate the merits of my complaint. As I said, I’m sure there are good people working at Sunrise Ford, I just didn’t have the benefit of dealing with them. I hope Sunrise Ford comes to their senses and at least attempts to make things right. Regardless, I’m ready to move on and enjoy my new car

Edited April 20, 2015 by Craigtaz

[akirby]

The advice still stands and maybe it will help others avoid these problems.

[dshamer]

Nonsense! Just because a person is naive or wants to trust a dealership, does not make it right for a dealership to take advantage of that person. You should not have to prepare yourself to purchase a car as if you are preparing to go to war. BUYING A CAR SHOULD BE A PLEASENT EXPERIENCE. It seems as if we have accepted that DEALERSHIPS ARE OUT TO SCREW US, and we must walk into a showroom with our guard up while spraying SHARK REPELLANT IN THE AIR to keep the unscrupulous sales sharks at bay...Blaming a purchaser for bait and switch and fuzzy math, is like placing the blame on the victim of a crime.

 

If a salesperson holds back information or only tells you half the story, it is as good as telling a lie. IMHO

Edited April 22, 2015 by dshamer

[akirby]

It's not about putting the blame on the consumer or letting the dealer off the hook. Dealers should not use these tactics.

 

However.......

 

Expecting all dealers (or other businesses) to behave honestly is naive.

 

For the most part what they're doing is not illegal and there will always be shady dealers out there. Given that, consumers need to be aware of those tactics and take steps so they're not taken advantage of.

[Waldo]

If a salesperson holds back information or only tells you half the story, it is as good as telling a lie. IMHO

 

But if some random person comes on the internet to make a post while holding back information and only telling half the story, it should be considered nothing but pure fact?

Edited April 22, 2015 by Waldo

[PaulSchott]

Please don't take this personally. This is not directed to anyone with an opinion on this discussion.

My father-in-law was a used and new car dealer.

His favorite expression was "There's an ass for every seat"

[dshamer]

It's not about putting the blame on the consumer or letting the dealer off the hook. Dealers should not use these tactics.

 

However.......

 

Expecting all dealers (or other businesses) to behave honestly is naive.

 

For the most part what they're doing is not illegal and there will always be shady dealers out there. Given that, consumers need to be aware of those tactics and take steps so they're not taken advantage of.

Agreed, and what they are doing may not be illegal, but it is immoral. There is a reason that we all are suspicious of dealerships when making a purchase.

AS AN ENTITY THE PROFESSION HAS EARNED OUR MISTRUST.

 

And, dealerships, while independent, still represent the manufacturer's product. If Ford, GM, Chrysler, Toyota etc. let dealerships behave badly without punishment, it says a lot about the company and their product...of course Ford has not manned up about their PTU problems on the Edge/MKX, and MOST car companies hide behind their faulty products and claim ignorance to save a buck at the expense of the consumer,(GM has been well known for this) so, I would not expect them or others to step up to the plate and do the right thing as it pertains to shady dealerships. Again, this is just my opinion that is based on many years of buying cars.

[akirby]

If Ford, GM, Chrysler, Toyota etc. let dealerships behave badly without punishment, it says a lot about the company and their product...

 

No, it says everything about automotive franchise laws. Every state has laws that prevent mfrs from interfering in how dealerships run their business. Ford has no say so in how dealers sell their vehicles unless they're doing something illegal. These laws were passed 50+ years ago to keep the mfrs from taking over and forcing smaller dealerships out of business. Today it just makes it almost impossible for Ford to do anything about a shady dealer.

 

Many years ago Ford tried to reward dealers with great customer service with more money in the form of higher holdbacks on cars they sold versus other dealers. They weren't taking anything away from the other dealers, just giving some dealers more holdback as a reward. Dealers sued immediately and Ford lost.

 

Ford also tried to set up an internet shopping website for used cars. Consumer picks out a used car in the area and Ford would arrange to send it to a local dealer for test drive and purchase - dealers still got all the sales. Dealers sued again and won.

 

Their hands are literally tied by franchise laws when it comes to dealer behavior except in the most egregious cases.

[dshamer]

 

But if some random person comes on the internet to make a post while holding back information and only telling half the story, it should be considered nothing but pure fact?

Please, point out the post in this thread where you see half a story?

I have a tendancy to believe people when they say they have had a bad experience, unless it so glaringly obvious that what they have written is BS.

 

Do you work for a dealership?

 

And,I've seen forums where folks are blinded because they are in love with a product to a fault. They will defend it and anything related to it from criticism, regardless of facts...I'm not saying that this is the case, but it does happen.

[dshamer]

QUOTE: akirby "No, it says everything about automotive franchise laws. Every state has laws that prevent mfrs from interfering in how dealerships run their business. Ford has no say so in how dealers sell their vehicles unless they're doing something illegal. These laws were passed 50+ years ago to keep the mfrs from taking over and forcing smaller dealerships out of business. Today it just makes it almost impossible for Ford to do anything about a shady dealer."

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks, I did not know that. Good information...

[akirby]

It's not that the story is BS, just that there were no details up front. Look at the extended warranty claim. What the buyer wanted was a separate transaction for the ext. warranty paid by credit card. What the finance guy wrote up was one sale including the warranty with the credit card payment as a down payment. That is standard practice for the finance guy so this probably falls into the area of simple miscommunication (especially since the buyer saw the paperwork and signed it) rather than dishonesty.

 

There is a big difference between having a written complete quote and agreeing to the transaction and then having the dealership try to raise the price, lower the trade-in or change the financing in their favor and getting a phone estimate and having the final written quote be different. Yet buyers in both cases could claim they were lied to.

 

There are two sides to every story, good or bad.

[dshamer]

QUOTE:akirby "That is standard practice for the finance guy so this probably falls into the area of simple miscommunication (especially since the buyer saw the paperwork and signed it) rather than dishonesty."

 

 

 

Ok, "simple miscommunication". I can except that. Everyone makes mistakes. Now, why can't they simply communicate with buyer and make buyer happy? And, I find it amusing that mistakes by dealerships always favor the dealer, very rare that a customer benefits by a dealer's mistakes.

 

We will just agree to disagree on this one. I remember many, many moons ago, when the customer was always right. A customer should not walk unhappy, especially after JUST making a large purchase such as a car.

 

Unhappines usually comes after the purchase, making the monthly payments and trying to get dealership to fix things on the vehicle correctly. LOL

Edited April 23, 2015 by dshamer

[akirby]

Nobody is excusing bad dealer behavior. There is plenty of that to go around. But that doesn't mean that every transaction that a customer is unhappy about is the result of bad dealer behavior.

 

I worked retail for several years in college and the one thing I learned is the customer isn't always right and while you should try to make your customers as happy as possible there are limits. Some customers are unreasonable and have unreasonable expectations.

 

If someone says a dealer lied to them you need to know the details to figure out what really happened.

 

Some people get upset about a dealer "low-balling" their trade-in and in most cases they're comparing the retail value of their vehicle with the black book or wholesale value.