Direct Injection and Carbon Buildup

[TheWizard]

Nothing voids a warranty except misuse (i.e. racing). An individual repair may be denied warranty coverage due to a modification, aftermarket part, or lack of maintenance but that is only if the issue was caused by that modification, part, or lack of maintenance. Even the "big evil" engine tune won't void a warranty although almost all engine repairs could be denied warranty coverage if a tune is found (but you could still get your power windows fixed, for example). A catch can might be used as an excuse to deny warranty coverage on the emissions system, especially the EGR system, but other than that there is no warranty consideration. And even if spray cleaner were a problem, it would be difficult for a dealer to prove or even know unless the owner is dumb enough to go in and say "I put some spray in the intake and now it runs rough".

[Snox801]

I understand how the magnuson moss act works but the catch is if you are willing to pay for the litigation to argue with ford. I say a catch can would not void it or a proper tune by coming from the focus st and RS I can tell you many have been denied engines based on catch cans. Even after the RS had a recal on certain vin with the wrong head gasket causing failure. Cost more to fight it than buy the new motor. You could get lucky and have a good dealer but that is very rare.

I get what your saying but also know companies will do anything not to pay up.

[Snox801]

Also agree that the cleaner would be impossible to tell. Prob the safest way. I love my meth injection but the plug and play six fueling can be so easily removed that its hot me tempted. Although I didnt get the extended warranty on anything and never had an issue. Plus Ill be out of warranty this year at the rate my wife is driving the thing. Ill have 35,000 in a year. Not bad considering I put on 60,000 a year

[enigma-2]

Whether or not the warranty would be denied is probably based of the experience of the dealer's service personnel. If they choose to service a part and Ford refuses to reimburse them, they eat the cost. Here's what Ford's warranty states about it:

 

the installation or use of a non-Ford Motor Company part (other than a certified emissions part) or any part (Ford or non-Ford) designed for off-road use only installed after the vehicle leaves the control of Ford Motor Company, if the installed part fails or causes a Ford part to fail. Examples include, but are not limited to lift kits, oversized tires, roll bars, cellular phones, alarm systems, automatic starting systems and performance-enhancing powertrain components or software and performance "chips".

 

Like Snox801 wrote, are you willing to go to court and spend $$$$$ to fight whether your modification caused a failure?

[TheWizard]

You're right about the difference between the letter of the law and practical application of that law. I've posted exactly that in other threads here. However, since a catch can affects only the emissions system (and that is very easy to prove even to a non-mechanic), a small claims court would be unlikely to uphold a dealer claiming that a catch can could cause any significant, non-emissions failure in the engine or elsewhere. And a small claims court action costs very little to file. So yes, this would be one I would be willing to take on the dealer about.

 

Now tunes, forced induction, cams, even exhaust headers and other more extensive modifications are probably not worth taking a chance on because, even if you know that they didn't cause a failure, you might have great difficulty proving it to a judge who is probably not mechanically inclined.

[Snox801]

You are absolutely right. And I would do just as you said if I was in that case. Im just going by what happened to lots of RS owners that got the shaft from certain dealers. Very similar case to the age old question of if KN voids warranty. They never claim the filter was at fault but faulty install. Which is almost always the case with those style filters

[Snox801]

A lot depends on what you can stomach also. If your ok with no warranty or you are outside of the warranty the meth injection makes the most sense even if not tuned for it it will work to clean valves. Catch cans work to an extent but they dont solve the problem either so you still will get build up. Meth takes care of the problem altogether plus adds power of tuned. I actually have a can from lms for my edge but have not got to the install.

[tamugrad2013]

Well here is my new input after getting it done. DON'T do it. The first time I had it done it worked great but the second time it burned up the catalytic converter hence the check engine light coming on. I am actually really ashamed that I did it and it was a $1500 lesson learned a bit to late, but let my pain be your gain. Thankfully their was no effect on the turbo. The a low pressure fuel sensor was also replaced thankfully that was under the extended warranty. Now I find it highly suspicious for the check engine light to come on less than 30 minutes after the service was done. So buyer beware. I have already exclusively switched to top tier fuels and will continue to do that as long as I own the car.

[I'manedgeowner]

Just my 2 cents and most of this I've learned by just being around but you're spinning your wheels for so many reasons on this. To begin with Ford uses MAF senor when a MAP sensor system is better suited to a turbo'd engine. I know for a fact that engineers at Ford have tried to impress their opinion on using MAP over MAF on Eco Boost engines and gotten no where. As someone mentioned MAF also promotes fuel biasing to various cylinders. Another problem is with the various fuel mixtures available and the percentage of ethanol used. It's wise to get your fuel from the same retailer and one that doesn't shop the wholesale prices so what you're buying is constantly changing. There are limits to the ability of a PCM to "learn."

 

Your best bet to deal with carbon build up is to switch to a Lucas or Bosch disk type injector and use a consistent fuel along with maintenance.

 

A reality of turbos is they have a narrow VE sweet spot that occurs at a high RPM. That sweet spot isn't in an area most drivers are comfortable operating their daily driver family car at. Overcoming this reality, when possible, involves operating the engine outside of mandated emission standards.

 

There is a lot of information about what is going on with direct injection engines but not so much about the root cause of why. There's more available from text's on tuning about this than text's on engines.

[Snox801]

Also just a thought. Blow by is caused by boost and other factors creating pressures in the crankcase that is then vented through the Pcv. Which brings oil and vapor with the air back into the intake this getting on intake valves and coking. So most opt to use a catch can to collect the oil vapors and oil before it hit the intake. So one root problem is crack pressure. So Ive been running the upr oil cap breather. So the thought is that will alleviate a good amount of crank pressure. That would lead to less air moving through the pcv system theyd less oil in the intake. Keep in mind I have no proof this works but the logic is solid behind it. At 20,000 miles on my tunes and ran hard 2.0 I had only a 2-3 long streak of oil in the intake where the inlet is. So basically none.

I also have not had any issue with my 2.3 after 6,800 miles. I have not checked my truck as its got lots of miles and didnt have a upr till after 100,000. Plus the meth keeps it nice and clean. So it may be worth a try for you guys. Not a end all fix but sure seems to help and was only based off the thought of pressure in the crank.

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

Ecoboosts have used MAP sensors from day 1.

Just my 2 cents and most of this I've learned by just being around but you're spinning your wheels for so many reasons on this. To begin with Ford uses MAF senor when a MAP sensor system is better suited to a turbo'd engine. I know for a fact that engineers at Ford have tried to impress their opinion on using MAP over MAF on Eco Boost engines and gotten no where.

[I'manedgeowner]

WWWPerfA_ZN0W,

 

Nice catch. Someone else also corrected me on jumping the shark over this. I'm use to Ford Performance and Ford Europe primarily with the B-Max Eco Boost (not sold in the US) engines which uses MAF. I was given this link with respect to testing a MAF sensor which led to me getting corrected over this. Not an excuse for my error but my experience is with chassis\suspensions and I need to remember that.

 

http://pmmonline.co.uk/technical/ford-b-max-ecoboost-maf-sensor/

Edited July 11, 2018 by I'manedgeowner

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

Not a problem. Most people use the term interchangeably anyway LOL. Nice link, I will have to read through!

[tk2fast]

I've noticed that the 2.7 & 3.3 EB are getting both direct and port injection starting this fall. So it seems that Ford is saying that direct injection only can cause problems, so they are adding port injection, which makes sense. So my question is since the 2l EB is one of Fords highly used engines, do they plan on having both port and direct injection on the 2l EB soon? Or just sticking with direct injection?

[akirby]

I would guess that since the 2.0EB is used in less expensive vehicles it's harder to absorb the added cost. Whereas the others are used mostly in F150 and other higher priced vehicles.

[tk2fast]

I would guess that since the 2.0EB is used in less expensive vehicles it's harder to absorb the added cost. Whereas the others are used mostly in F150 and other higher priced vehicles.

Hmm... Well, that is the ONLY engine in the 2019 Edge besides the ST and I don't consider the Edge a less expensive vehicle. The 2019 I'm looking at comes in at about $45K.

[akirby]

I was referring to Escape and Fusion where most sales are lower end models as well as some lower end models in Europe. And lower end Edges are in the $25K - $35K range.

 

F150s have a much higher profit margin and can easily reach $60K.

 

There could also be some technical reasons they haven't done it on the 2.0L yet.

[tk2fast]

All true akirby. Just seems strange to me that Ford decided not to offer ANY other engine choice for the Edge, except of the ST. Just think Ford should have been a little more consumer savvy, as the Edge is a top selling auto.

[dolsen]

Customization of cars is going bye bye unfortunately. Now its all about packaging and bundling options... reminds me of cable tv

[tk2fast]

Out of all the 2019 autos I'm looking to purchase, the Edge is the ONLY one not to give me a choice of a larger engine and the Edge is at the upper end of my range. Ugh!

[akirby]

Out of all the 2019 autos I'm looking to purchase, the Edge is the ONLY one not to give me a choice of a larger engine and the Edge is at the upper end of my range. Ugh!

But you can eat the 2.7LEB engine - you just have to get the ST.

 

The 2.0L is needed for exports to Europe and other countries that tax larger engines. I think they’re just keeping the combinations low for now and they’re trying to accelerate the next gen version which I’m sure will have more choices.

 

If you’re looking to spend $45K you should look at a MKX where you can get the 2.7L on lower end models.

[omar302]

The Edge in Europe only gets Diesel engines, as far as I remember. Also, putting port & direct injection is supposedly to "work together to improve power output, efficiency, and emissions", so maybe the benefits are not cost worthy for the smaller 2.0 EcoBoost.

 

Edit: just noticed, yes the 2.0 is also offered in Europe, but not on the Edge.

Edited July 28, 2018 by omar302

[tk2fast]

But you can eat the 2.7LEB engine - you just have to get the ST.

 

The 2.0L is needed for exports to Europe and other countries that tax larger engines. I think they’re just keeping the combinations low for now and they’re trying to accelerate the next gen version which I’m sure will have more choices.

 

If you’re looking to spend $45K you should look at a MKX where you can get the 2.7L on lower end models.

The wife says the ST is too "manly" "black" looking! We both love the Titanium though and we looked at the MKX (Nautilus) and it's a beautiful car, but just so upscale classy looking and does not fit our personalities. Decisions, decisions...

[Snox801]

Yep they seem to be less an issue of carbon on the 2.0 and the whole cost thing plays in. It may make its way over in the future but I dont see it soon. Btw the 3.5 has had the duel port for the last year.

[IcyFridge]

With direct injection, hitting boost will clean those deposits out. Focus ST guys goose it every now and then to cook off the deposits. Driving like a granny all the time builds the deposits more.