Who needs AWD?

[tlim66]

I think there is no doubt that a skilled driver in a FWD can do as well if that better than a less skilled driver in an AWD, but I think there is also no doubt that an AWD system is far superior system given the same driver. So the debate is whether you want to save the money/safety because you may think that you may not need the AWD or think it is not worth the money for you. So I guess the person that needs AWD would be the person that has been in a situation where they wished they had AWD and did not.......

[end]

I happily paid for AWD to avoid putting getting out of my car and putting on chains every time I go to the mountain. They have highway patrol checkpoints for chains or AWD down here in SoCal, so it doesnt matter how skilled of a driver you are. Now a skilled liar will get past the checkpoint pretty easily, but thats a different issue.

[wwest]

LOL. Love this intense debate. As an extreme auto guy, I will have to add my 2 cents in to this topic. I have lived between the Northwest and Northcentral part of the U.S. for life (again, many many years) near the Canadian border in easily some of the most brutal winters this country has to offer. I know this may touch a nerve with some, but it is a fact: If you cannot drive with FWD you should not be on the road. If you need the personal 'feel better' purchase of the AWD for the large sum of $2000 plus, that is perfectly acceptable. However, AWD does very little in improving driving ability of a vehicle over a FWD vehicle. You need to drive for the conditions. AWD might help you get rolling a second or two earlier from a stoplight or a stopped position, but that is about it. $2000 for this feature is a major upsell by the auto industry similar to how concession stands at movie theatres upsell popcorn and soft drinks. A great 'feel good' feature, but certainly not respectable to the price for the product. 4WD vehicles..... certainly yes.... very worth the money. AWD vehicles... 100 percent not worth it unless money is no object and $2000 can be thrown around with no hesitation. As for resale, nope. AWD will do for resale value the same as FWD will do for resale..... book value of the vehicle at time of sale or trade in respect to price paid for vehicle at at initial purchase. AWD is NOT going to give you some magic increase in value over other FWD vehicles. You paid more for that feature when buying it so you might get a little more when trading it. I have owned a couple AWD vehicles most recently my last 2008 Ford Edge (wife wanted the AWD). After loving the Edge for 2 years we have traded it for a new 2010 Ford Edge FWD. We have noticed absolutely NO improvements in handling. The FWD performs just as nice as our AWD did, other than being able to start at one or two split seconds earlier from a stopped position in extremely icy conditions. My wife is a very conservative and nervous driver (and yes we have small children that ride in it) and even she admitted there isn't any difference at all from our previous AWD Edge and our new FWD Edge. She finally believes me that we didn't need to waste the $2000 on the AWD upsell feature and are happy to use that huge amount of money towards other great things. Also, a few miles per gallon less driving and a huge probability of additional maintenance problems/costs for the AWD mechanical system just no way in heck it's worth it. The good thing about upsells though, is that they are available to those that need the 'feel good' feature and have lots of extra money to spend.

 

"..brutal winters.."

 

Cut Bank comes IMMEDIATELY to mind.

 

 

The MAJOR problem with RWD occurs when an inexperienced driver or "boy-racer" applies to much throttle for roadbed conditions.

 

The MAJOR problem with FWD occurs when an inexperienced driver......

 

The SECONDARY problem with RWD is the lack of QUICK corrective action on the part of the driver once the rear starts coming around.

 

The SECONDARY problem with FWD is the lack of the ABILITY for quick corrective action.

 

The RWD vehicle in this instance remains with the ability for directional control. Loss of traction on a FWD also means the loss of directional control.

 

Because of this FWD "trait" it was once though that ~200HP would be the limit for FWD vehicles.

 

But then it was decided that engine detuning/derating could be imposed via firmware at low speeds to avoid the issue. That practice continues today, sometimes driver selective, sometimes not.

 

Next came the F/awd "solution", distribute the engine torque across all four wheels as long as the surface can sustain such.

 

Then TRAC was added for instances wherein traction could not sustain.

 

The latest form(***) of F/awd only engages the rear driveline when accelerating for a stop or from a low speed.

 

*** Ford Escape, Mariner, Edge, etc. Mazda CX-7, etc. Toyota Venza, 2010 RX350.

 

Apparently you CANNOT make a silk purse from a sow's ear.

 

The closest would be the Acura SH-AWD system with the ability to apportion torque F/R 30/70.

 

Otherwise you need to ONLY consider base RWD vehicles, R/awd, if you want "drive" and directional control.

 

But yes, a FWD with VSC/TRAC will be just as adequate(***1) in the proper hands as almost (SH-AWD) any F/awd vehicle.

 

***1 Frustratingly adequate as TRAC will often activate in conditions wherein otherwise your life would be at risk. Wheelspin/slip of the front wheels is considered a rather dire, UNSAFE, situation, recovery of directional control becomes of the UTMOST importance. So FULL TRAC activation is INSTANTANEOUS, braking and engine dethrottling.

 

 

and engine dethrottling.

[wwest]

I think there is no doubt that a skilled driver in a FWD can do as well if that better than a less skilled driver in an AWD, but I think there is also no doubt that an AWD system is far superior system given the same driver. So the debate is whether you want to save the money/safety because you may think that you may not need the AWD or think it is not worth the money for you. So I guess the person that needs AWD would be the person that has been in a situation where they wished they had AWD and did not.......

 

Some differentialtion between F/awd and R/awd is required.

 

The early RWD models with TRAC ('92 LS400) would start braking and dethrottling the engine the INSTANT wheelspin/slip was detected. For later models ('00 GS300) the dethrottling was delayed a few hundred milliseconds to give the driver the opportunity to "feather" the throttle to a level wherein drive torque could be sustained at a level cognizant with the roadbed traction coefficient.

 

Therein lies the SECRET to driving on the slippery stuff. Either there is enough traction, overall traction, to get the vehicle moving forward or there is not. The SECRET part is the driver having the ability to learn, learn quickly and in real time, the traction coefficient of the roadbed surface. You learn to EASE the throttle, trial and error, right up to the point of loss of traction but not beyond.

 

This is the FRUSTRATING part of many RWD and R/awd TRAC systems but ALL FWD or F/awd TRAC systems.

 

When TRAC reacts instantly with engine detrottling, as well it must with FWD and F/awd vehicles, there is NO opportunity for the driver to learn to manage the drive torque. The only option is to have the ability to disable TRAC altogether.

[wwest]

my 2 cents:

 

I am one of the chosen few with a job title that has "essential services" in teeny letters below it. Having driven RWD and FWD when we chose to buy our Edge there was not much debate. After a couple of really bad winters, the next vehicle would either be 4WD or AWD. Not much is going to slow down AWD with 4 snow tires on it.

 

 

That depends, depends GREATLY, on the manufacturer's definition of AWD. If you mean SH-AWD or almost any R/awd system, then fine.

[fordfan102]

You sir are completely and 150% wrong.

You need to do some more research and im not talking about driving around the block with your wife on a rainy day.

 

Very sorry you feel this way, sir. As I mentioned in my initial post, I have lived in the most brutal winter climates in the Northern parts country over the years, and do not joy ride around the block in the rain. I've even ridden my harley on road trips through sudden unexpected cold rainstorms. Therefore, your sarcasm about riding around the block in the rain with the wife in the car was not necessary. All I meant by my post was that it is great that the AWD feature is there for those that may need it (or at least feel like they need it); but in all of my driving experience in the Northern winters we did not need it. I have owned a 2008 Edge with the AWD feature and a couple of other newer vehicles with the AWD feature. The new 2010 FWD Edge we have now drives supremely in all conditions, as did the AWD 2008 Edge we owned before trading it for this one. In my post I also simply mentioned the lesser fuel economy (which isn't that big of a deal) and potentially more mechanical problems with the AWD due to the more complex mechanical drive train on the AWD models (this info was even given to us by the service dept manager at the dealership). However, overall the AWD feature WILL likely help counter slippage on slick roads if accidentally overdriving the conditions, and will help in starting out slightly quicker from a stopped position. Rear wheel drive vehicles in snow and ice are a whole different story, but the AWD and FWD Ford Edge have both been great vehicles that I have owned. It's just simply that having owned both AWD's and FWD's before in the nasty winter climates we live in (both with hills in a rural setting and in the city), the FWD does superb and we just didn't want to shell out another 2 grand for another AWD when we did not need it from prior experiences in ownership. This doesn't mean that it is wrong for anyone who chooses the AWD. They are both great vehicles and each one is there for those to choose the one that they feel more comfortable with. Again, both superb vehicles and we love our current Edge, and loved our prior Edge. Before purchasing our 2010 Ford Edge Limited FWD we test drove many different vehicles multiple times including the Lexus GX09, Audi Q7, Lincoln MKX, Mazda CX-7, Toyota Venza, and the Nissan Murano. After driving all of these vehicles, we still went back to the Ford Edge Limited FWD for our purchase. Even for the drastic price increase of the Lexus and Audi, the Edge felt much more comfortable in ride and handling. The same with the Lincoln. Even though the MKX is almost the same (but more spiffed up) shell as the Edge, the Edge was hands down the better handling vehicle... strange but true. The Murano wasn't bad, but not as good as the Edge. The Toyota Venza felt way too stiff around town, but rolled around corners too much on the interstate which was strange. The Mazda CX-7 was the least favorite of the bunch.... it just didn't perform as well in any category. In summary people, buy what you want whether it be AWD or FWD. Everybody has an opinion, but the only one that matters is your own. Buy what you feel comfortable with. Enjoy and be safe!

Edited November 18, 2009 by fordfan102

[MOFSTEEL]

Very sorry you feel this way, sir. As I mentioned in my initial post, I have lived in the most brutal winter climates in the Northern parts country over the years, and do not joy ride around the block in the rain. I've even ridden my harley on road trips through sudden unexpected cold rainstorms. Therefore, your sarcasm about riding around the block in the rain with the wife in the car was not necessary. All I meant by my post was that it is great that the AWD feature is there for those that may need it (or at least feel like they need it); but in all of my driving experience in the Northern winters we did not need it. I have owned a 2008 Edge with the AWD feature and a couple of other newer vehicles with the AWD feature. The new 2010 FWD Edge we have now drives supremely in all conditions, as did the AWD 2008 Edge we owned before trading it for this one. In my post I also simply mentioned the lesser fuel economy (which isn't that big of a deal) and potentially more mechanical problems with the AWD due to the more complex mechanical drive train on the AWD models (this info was even given to us by the service dept manager at the dealership). However, overall the AWD feature WILL likely help counter slippage on slick roads if accidentally overdriving the conditions, and will help in starting out slightly quicker from a stopped position. Rear wheel drive vehicles in snow and ice are a whole different story, but the AWD and FWD Ford Edge have both been great vehicles that I have owned. It's just simply that having owned both AWD's and FWD's before in the nasty winter climates we live in (both with hills in a rural setting and in the city), the FWD does superb and we just didn't want to shell out another 2 grand for another AWD when we did not need it from prior experiences in ownership. This doesn't mean that it is wrong for anyone who chooses the AWD. They are both great vehicles and each one is there for those to choose the one that they feel more comfortable with. Again, both superb vehicles and we love our current Edge, and loved our prior Edge. Before purchasing our 2010 Ford Edge Limited FWD we test drove many different vehicles multiple times including the Lexus GX09, Audi Q7, Lincoln MKX, Mazda CX-7, Toyota Venza, and the Nissan Murano. After driving all of these vehicles, we still went back to the Ford Edge Limited FWD for our purchase. Even for the drastic price increase of the Lexus and Audi, the Edge felt much more comfortable in ride and handling. The same with the Lincoln. Even though the MKX is almost the same (but more spiffed up) shell as the Edge, the Edge was hands down the better handling vehicle... strange but true. The Murano wasn't bad, but not as good as the Edge. The Toyota Venza felt way too stiff around town, but rolled around corners too much on the interstate which was strange. The Mazda CX-7 was the least favorite of the bunch.... it just didn't perform as well in any category. In summary people, buy what you want whether it be AWD or FWD. Everybody has an opinion, but the only one that matters is your own. Buy what you feel comfortable with. Enjoy and be safe!

 

I wish you knew how to make paragraphs because that would make your posts easier to read and comprehend.

 

In your initial post you stated.

 

"AWD might help you get rolling a second or two earlier from a stoplight or a stopped position, but that is about it. $2000 for this feature is a major upsell by the auto industry similar to how concession stands at movie theatres upsell popcorn and soft drinks. A great 'feel good' feature, but certainly not respectable to the price for the product. 4WD vehicles..... certainly yes.... very worth the money. AWD vehicles... 100 percent not worth it unless money is no object and $2000 can be thrown around with no hesitation."

 

If you know anything at all about AWD systems and how they work you wouldn't be calling this "feature" as an "upsell" the auto industry.

 

I too have lived in some of the worst weather conditions being though I live in the Chicago area.

I have seen as much as 18" on one calender day. Believe me FWD wouldn't get you anywhere on a day like that. True AWD is not needed 100% of time and that is why the Ford Edge is equiped with On-Demand AWD system. The MPG difference is minimal between the FWD and AWD models. You might see a 1-2MPG gain dependent on your driving style.

 

So an "upsell" I think not. More so the assurance that my family and I will have a greater chance of getting out of that snow storm or safer in that torrential rainfall.

 

You might want to look into Part-time 4WD and Systems that use a center differential like Audi's Permanent asymmetric four-wheel drive.

[wwest]

I wish you knew how to make paragraphs because that would make your posts easier to read and comprehend.

 

In your initial post you stated.

 

"AWD might help you get rolling a second or two earlier from a stoplight or a stopped position, but that is about it. $2000 for this feature is a major upsell by the auto industry similar to how concession stands at movie theatres upsell popcorn and soft drinks. A great 'feel good' feature, but certainly not respectable to the price for the product. 4WD vehicles..... certainly yes.... very worth the money. AWD vehicles... 100 percent not worth it unless money is no object and $2000 can be thrown around with no hesitation."

 

If you know anything at all about AWD systems and how they work you wouldn't be calling this "feature" as an "upsell" the auto industry.

 

I too have lived in some of the worst weather conditions being though I live in the Chicago area.

I have seen as much as 18" on one calender day. Believe me FWD wouldn't get you anywhere on a day like that. True AWD is not needed 100% of time and that is why the Ford Edge is equiped with On-Demand AWD system. The MPG difference is minimal between the FWD and AWD models. You might see a 1-2MPG gain dependent on your driving style.

 

So an "upsell" I think not. More so the assurance that my family and I will have a greater chance of getting out of that snow storm or safer in that torrential rainfall.

 

You might want to look into Part-time 4WD and Systems that use a center differential like Audi's Permanent asymmetric four-wheel drive.

 

Personally I think that both of you have some things right and some things WRONG.

 

First, in comparison to a RWD or R/awd vehicle there is NO such thing as a safe FWD or F/awd in wintertime conditions, adverse, poor tarction, roadbed conditions.

 

Most F/awd systems in the market today are a simple "upsell" and offer no more road-going ability or safety then their FWD "brotheren".

 

"..More so the assurance..."

 

FALSE assurance..!!

 

Probably even a lower safety factor than the FWD version due to the over-confidence gained from what is actually a mostly NON-FUNCTIONAL F/awd system.

 

The single exception IMMHO is the Acura SH-AWD system.

[wwest]

LOL. Love this intense debate. As an extreme auto guy, I will have to add my 2 cents in to this topic. I have lived between the Northwest and Northcentral part of the U.S. for life (again, many many years) near the Canadian border in easily some of the most brutal winters this country has to offer. I know this may touch a nerve with some, but it is a fact: If you cannot drive with FWD you should not be on the road. If you need the personal 'feel better' purchase of the AWD for the large sum of $2000 plus, that is perfectly acceptable. However, AWD does very little in improving driving ability of a vehicle over a FWD vehicle. You need to drive for the conditions. AWD might help you get rolling a second or two earlier from a stoplight or a stopped position, but that is about it. $2000 for this feature is a major upsell by the auto industry similar to how concession stands at movie theatres upsell popcorn and soft drinks. A great 'feel good' feature, but certainly not respectable to the price for the product.

 

 

4WD vehicles..... certainly yes.... very worth the money.

 

This is the statement wherein you sort of went awry. All AWD vehicles are NOT derived from a FWD base. Many R/awd vehicles in the market today are easily the equivalent of "4WD" vehicles. Their only "shortcoming", for some, would be the lack of 4-lo.

 

AWD (F/awd) vehicles... 100 percent not worth it unless money is no object and $2000 can be thrown around with no hesitation.

 

The SH-AWD system being the sole exception IMMHO.

 

As for resale, nope. AWD will do for resale value the same as FWD will do for resale.....

 

This is where you go wrong yet again. The same marketing "upsell" method, thinking, under which the initial owner purchased a F/awd vehicle will also apply to subsequent purchasers.

 

book value of the vehicle at time of sale or trade in respect to price paid for vehicle at at initial purchase. AWD is NOT going to give you some magic increase in value over other FWD vehicles. You paid more for that feature when buying it so you might get a little more when trading it. I have owned a couple AWD vehicles most recently my last 2008 Ford Edge (wife wanted the AWD). After loving the Edge for 2 years we have traded it for a new 2010 Ford Edge FWD. We have noticed absolutely NO improvements in handling. The FWD performs just as nice as our AWD did, other than being able to start at one or two split seconds earlier from a stopped position in extremely icy conditions. My wife is a very conservative and nervous driver (and yes we have small children that ride in it) and even she admitted there isn't any difference at all from our previous AWD Edge and our new FWD Edge. She finally believes me that we didn't need to waste the $2000 on the AWD upsell feature and are happy to use that huge amount of money towards other great things. Also, a few miles per gallon less driving and a huge probability of additional maintenance problems/costs for the AWD mechanical system just no way in heck it's worth it. The good thing about upsells though, is that they are available to those that need the 'feel good' feature and have lots of extra money to spend.

Edited November 18, 2009 by wwest

[fordfan102]

I wish you knew how to make paragraphs because that would make your posts easier to read and comprehend.

 

Come on man... comments like this are clearly not conducive to a respectable conversation. I was in a hurry to get to a meeting for pete's sake.... sheez.

 

Look... we are on the same side... we are both proud Ford Edge Limited owners (both Sterling Gray fans too I might add). If you read my last post you would have seen that I gave AWD it's props. It's personal decision. Some want to spend the money on it and some don't. If some of my opinion came off the wrong way towards you... my bad. I certainly didn't have the intention of offending you. All I was trying to do was state my opinion on what I thought were my experiences between the two since I have owned more AWD vehicles than FWD vehicles over the past 12 years or so.

 

Again, all I was getting at was that AWD didn't make a single drab of difference for me over the years in all of the extreme winter locations that I have lived in.... but that doesn't mean I am knocking it by any means. Nor does it mean that it might not be a good choice for other people who choose that feature. I lived in Lincolnshire IL for 5 years, and those years were probably the best of winter conditions from the places I've lived in the Northern part of the country. Having said that, FWD did me superb in all locations I have been in, as did my previous AWD.

 

AWD is there for those who choose that feature. I agree that 1-3 mpg less isn't too bad. Also, the fact that multiple dealers I have spoken with have had more AWD vehicles in for repairs than FWD vehicles due to the additional mechanical components was certainly not a deciding factor for me either. It's just simply that I have owned many AWD and FWD vehicles over the years and the difference was very minimal even in the worst conditions. Maybe I am a bit of an overly conscientious driver but that is not necessarily a bad thing. Whether someone owns an AWD or FWD vehicle, it is important to drive safely every second you are in the vehicle.

 

There is no denying that there may be some degree of added benefit for the AWD feature, otherwise they wouldn't charge an extra 2 grand for it. It is great that people have the option to choose whether or not they want to pay for that feature on their vehicle. Regardless, whomever may be reading this post in considering a new Ford Edge purchase, please always drive safe whichever option you choose to purchase. The Ford Edge is a great vehicle!

Edited November 18, 2009 by fordfan102

[MOFSTEEL]

Personally I think that both of you have some things right and some things WRONG.

 

First, in comparison to a RWD or R/awd vehicle there is NO such thing as a safe FWD or F/awd in wintertime conditions, adverse, poor tarction, roadbed conditions.

 

Most F/awd systems in the market today are a simple "upsell" and offer no more road-going ability or safety then their FWD "brotheren".

 

"..More so the assurance..."

 

FALSE assurance..!!

 

Probably even a lower safety factor than the FWD version due to the over-confidence gained from what is actually a mostly NON-FUNCTIONAL F/awd system.

 

The single exception IMMHO is the Acura SH-AWD system.

 

 

Safer than FWD if all variables are the same.

The way I drive is how I drive. No matter what vehicle I am in I always drive for conditions.

No over-confidence thus a greater safety factor for me.

No assurance can ever be 100%.

Edited November 23, 2009 by MOFSTEEL

[wwest]

Safer than FWD if all variables are the same.

The way I drive is how I drive. No matter what vehicle I am I always drive for conditions.

No over-confidence thus a greater safety factor for me.

No assurance can ever be 100%.

 

 

"...I always drive for conditions..."

 

That would mean, like me ('01 F/awd RX300), your FWD or F/awd vehicle gets left in a nice warm garage in foul weather or on the expectation of foul weather.

 

If you are driving a FWD or F/awd in wintertime conditions then you are either over-confidence in your own driving abilities and/or simply do not understand the shortcomings of those vehicles insofar as safety is concerned.

 

But I suppose "dead slow" and a good set of tire chains on the rear would be okay.

 

As the old saying goes:

 

There are BOLD pilots and there are OLD pilots...

 

But there are NO BOLD OLD pilots.

[fordfan102]

"..brutal winters.."

 

Cut Bank comes IMMEDIATELY to mind.

 

Cut Bank, Montana? I use to work up in the NW part of the state (Kalispell/Columbia Falls area) while living in the SW part of the state also awhile back. Couldn't agree more. Those are some deadly brutal conditions and very dangerous roads up there. Even in the SW part of the state the conditions were absolutely extremely brutal sometimes. Very beautiful state at the same time though.

Edited November 18, 2009 by fordfan102

[MOFSTEEL]

"...I always drive for conditions..."

 

That would mean, like me ('01 F/awd RX300), your FWD or F/awd vehicle gets left in a nice warm garage in foul weather or on the expectation of foul weather.

 

If you are driving a FWD or F/awd in wintertime conditions then you are either over-confidence in your own driving abilities and/or simply do not understand the shortcomings of those vehicles insofar as safety is concerned.

 

But I suppose "dead slow" and a good set of tire chains on the rear would be okay.

 

As the old saying goes:

 

There are BOLD pilots and there are OLD pilots...

 

But there are NO BOLD OLD pilots.

 

I more than understand the capabilities of my AWD vehicles. I have auto crossed for almost 10 years now in all types of vehicles and conditions. (RWD, FWD, AWD)

 

Currently I do have a garage for them but that always wasn't the case.

For several years I had to leave my car on the side streets for downtown Chicago.

Good luck trying to get your car out of 6-7ft snow drifts without a good shovel and AWD.

 

BTW, snow chains are illegal in Illinois so that is out of the question.

 

Maybe you should inform yourself next time before jumping to conclusions.

 

Seems like the over-confidence is coming from your responses instead of my driving.

[Goldy]

Wow....lot's of stong feelings on this one. I (should say my wife) has an 09 awd limited. I'd agree, most of the time fwd is plenty, even when there's some snow on the ground. However, I do think the awd makes a huge difference when the snow gets deep, and I'll go as far as to say helps quite a bit going up hills on snowy/icy roads. And I would also agree that the awd does allow for better acceleration on snow/ice than fwd.

 

Personally, I wanted the awd for my wife (the Edge is hers) for a little peace of mind when driving in the winter; my wife drives a bunch in the winter, and every so often, encounters a major snow storm...to me, the awd offers just a bit more security. If awd was not offered in the Edge, we probably would have gone w/ another Explorer (awd or 4wd). Edge is more car-like, and appealed more to my wife than the Explorer...plus it does get better milage (averaging 21 mph overall vs 17 mph). Personally, I probably would have opted for another Explorer if it was up to me, but I think we all know how that goes... :wacko:

 

It's all good...either are fine in typical winter conditions...just my thoughts.