Lex Talionis

"arbitrarily decided on $15,000." yup that is EXACTLY what I did... honestly. just seemed like a cash number I was ok with parting with. I appreciate your efforts, caveats and honesty... I know you have good intentoins and I understand we are pulling numbers and ideas from our just to make the point.. but it still helps a guy think more in depth about it. trust me, I will not come back and say, "but some guy named bbf2530 on some internet BBB I just started posting on told me I should do this and it would be okay" :D it already has me finding neat calculators on the web that answer this EAXCT question ( Which is better: a rebate or special dealer financing? ), it has me understanding a general zone on when it would be ideal to take the APR versus the cash.. it just has the juices flowing now and I have a better sense of how to approach the decision.

here is something kind of interesting.... look down to AUTO section http://www.fool.com/calcs/calculators.htm Which is better: a new or used vehicle? How much should depreciation cost me? Should I lease or purchase a vehicle? Should I finance or pay cash for a vehicle? How much will my vehicle payments be? Which vehicle loan is better? What term of vehicle loan should I choose? Should I use a home equity loan instead of an auto loan? Which is better: a rebate or special dealer financing? How long should I keep a vehicle? What vehicle can I afford?

I understand that aspect of money management no problem. that is simple math and understanding even for me.. it is just these APR versus cash back calls I am a little iffy on.. but I am better prepared now to make a decision. The one thing you did not enter into the above equation is the simple fact of having money/cash in the bank to turn to if happens... and believe me, it does when you least expect it. I know.. because it has. think about this.. using your above example of "Assuming an "out the door" price of $35,775 (I have to start somewhere) and a $15,000 down payment. Here are some figures: If you take the 3.9% and $500 - Your monthly payment would be $598. That would give you a total out of pocket in payments of $21,528 for 36 months. Add your $15,000 Down Payment and you paid a total of $36,558." now, in the end I will have paid a mere 783 more for the car versus just paying it off. To me.. have that extra 20k available cash 'just in case' is worth the $783 I paid extra to own that car over 3 years. to be honest, I could walk in and pay cash money and walk out. BUT, I feel like that leaves me a little thin for comfort to just toss that much cash down. no payment mind you and of course, very few of us with cash in a bank account get even close to 3.9% in interest. ha.. not these days. so, that also holds me back from just paying cash in one big whack... just trying to be prudent and the prudent move does not seem to pay cash for the entire rig but rather, cash and some loan. PLUS, I also have my VW I plan to private sell to get the max out of it and then roll that cash into the loan. But, it may take weeks to sell it. Last time I went to buy a car, the dealer offered 3500 for my olf Acura and I ended up private selling for 5500. Since my current car is paid off, I can afford to keep it and sell it for more than the dealer will give me.

I would like to build an SEL with all Limted options as I would get the wheels I want and I get the bonus of no chrome Beltline as it comes black on the SEL. That would be win win for me. BUT, I think that maybe the real outcome would be a Limited and try to finagle the dealer into 'down-grading' to the SEL wheels for me. I suspect bbf nailed it there..... salesman was suppose to call tonight about the truth of getting an SEL with both premium and seating flexibility package or maybe a Limited with SEL wheels... but no call. Hmmmm, I wonder if he is instructed that if the guy does not commit to buy by xxx time/interactions, stop contact with him and move on as he is likely a lame duck

interesting you say that... that is what the salesman swears is possible.. but go try to build a 2008 SEL on the website... you can pick only 1 or the other.

only problem there is that the phones I need - PDA style - are not merely $150 I use a Palm Treo for specific business and personal reasons.. and it is one of the most ubiquitous PDA data style phones out there - and yet it is neither supported nor not supported. to get me a phone that would work with Sync would be a heck of a lot more than $150 as it is just not a phone to me... it is a lot more. agreed about the weak boiler plate responses... I kept responding back like 4 times with specific questions only to get these lame vague emails... ha ha

thanks a ton! believe it or not, these create better mental points to recall than you may think. I believe, in post #6 you said "All of that being said, if you are only putting down $15,000 on a $35,000 price tag, that means you will be financing $25,000 for 36 months" but in fact, it would be 20k financed for 36 months... not 25k. anyway.... I get all the points you make. Yes, I did go check out the Payment Estimator and toyed with it a bit. No, I am not a credit union member - I did that on my last car 7.5 years ago and it helped a bit. In checking today on their website, their rates are not that great, nor are my banks - that 3.9% is as good as I have seen. As for my credit score - which Abrannan19 raised, though I am not 100% sure, I have run my credit reports recently - which law states we can do freely each year and I do just to check up - and I have no problems.. I only owe on my house. student and car loans both paid off. no revolving credit. no dings or collections I know of or they reported.... so I would assume I am pretty golden there. I could always put more down. but not doing this often, buying cars that is, I do not put much thought into this topic and decided this time to do more of an effort rather than wing it like last time. so, was just not sure if there was a cut and dried response to my question like "always take the better APR over cash", etc. I think the best thing is to do this, "Also, you can simply request that they work up your loan figures both ways, while you are there. It is part of their job description : First, taking the 3.9% APR/$500, and second taking the full $1,000 and the "everyday APR Rate". They have a computer program that spits everything out in seconds, in writing. So let them use it to help you" - your right, that is what they are there for. I am just not sure if there are imaginative ways they can work it up that work in their favor and the average unsavy guy like me gets caught with his pants down.

thanks guys! BBF - you are correct in that my goal would be 36 months. want to pay the least amount possible to own the car. so, that is my goal and what I have done in the past. Also, in this case, it seems 3.9 is only available in the 36 month option. as for the down payment, I was kind of thinking maybe 15k. that seems a lot to me, but not sure. and what, these Limited Edges, on the high end (though I am trying HARD to swing an X Plan deal) are 33k or so? it seems though, that it would be hard to get the exact numbers you mention prior to making the deal as I would assume we will bicker and hash it out - and do it then. no time to come back, plug in numbers, decide on best route, and go back? that a safe assumption? I guess I assume they will say, "okay, right here right now here is the deal" - which leaves me no time to come back and figure it out. Maybe I was more looking for mental pointers to keep in mind when making a decision and looking at the 2 options. For example, at point x it is best to take cash back while at point y you are better off with taking a better rate.

so is the factory privacy glass 15 or 20%??? Good_hands says 15% but his photos show that the fronts clearly do not match the rears

thanks... yeah, I am a scrapper.. so I will go down swinging to get what I want, not what they want to sell... assuming they even want to sell me a car BTW, the websites shows - on an SEL - the price diff between the 18" funky Chrome Clad and the cleaner 18" Premium Painted Aluminum I want (seen as the center image here BTW: http://www.fordvehicles.com/util/uad/index...083&nType=2 ) as $175 less for the latter. So, that would be my working number.

When looking at incentive deals, I see - for example - $1000 total cash back on an Edge OR $500 cash if do 3.9% for 36 months APR. How does one determine what the best deal is? How do you look at it and figure what will get you the best deal? I have a hard time with these math type considerations.

just got this nice generic, noncommittal email from SYNC about the Treo 650.. not much help huh? Hello, Thank you for contacting the Ford Motor Company Customer Relationship Center regarding the compatibility of the Treo 650 with Sync. Feedback such as yours allows us to examine our practices and policies to ensure that we meet or exceed the expectations of our customers in the future. We regret that you have not had a favorable experience, and appreciate the time you have taken to write us. If you have any other inquiries regarding SYNC, please feel free to contact us and we will be happy to address them for you. followed by this when I replied that they did not actually answer my question.. Our records indicate that you contacted the Ford Customer Relationship Center earlier and we advised you that the Customer Relationship Center is unaware in advance of changes that our Sync Engineering and Design Team may be making and the specific reasons that the changes may be made in the future. At this time we are unable to provide you with an alternate response. If any additional information regarding this matter should become available in the future, please let us know.

I am leaning towards buying the White Sand Tri-Coat with black leather. Creme Brulee would be #2 I like the camel leather, but at the dealer we got in and it seemed to show every little scuff. black is just more practical in the end run for me as I sleep in my cars, camp, put bikes and junk in them, beach sand everyday, etc. black just helps hide the active lifestyle scars.

first, not saying it is or is not. syncmyride.com clearly makes the effort to tell you that not all phones that are capable of syncing are listed and many not on the list do, but have not just been officially tested. So essentially, it is telling you that there is a good chance yours will even if not on the list. ALSO, they DO have a list of phones they do know that will not work for sure. This Treo is not on that list mind you. Second, they sell the hell out of that Sync feature to you and - the salesman - know very little about phone usage. I was never told by the dealer that some might and some might not. It was blanket told "you have a cell phone? then you can sync it to the sync system!" - which is not entirely true. Point is, if they sell you on a piece of equipment, only to find that piece of equipment that they sold you on does not work for you, then it seems their bad. Though I am - and many of us here - are the rarer buyer in that we come to the web to research, most people simply do not and if the dealer tells you "do you have a cell phone? then you can sync it" and you buy the car only to find out that you cannot.. who do you turn to? You could have bought a 2007 with no sync then but instead, bought into that option that generically sold you on. so, there is a lot of gray here. in this exact case - the phone I have seems to work for some and not others. is not on the official list - but many that work are not on the list - but is not on the official 'will not work list' either. the salesman generically sell you on the idea/product and do not caveat the service, I just happen to find out by trying and web researching - most people will NOT do what I have done and go t this effort. so really, is my phone compatible or not.....

thats exactly my plan. I knew I would ask them, just wanted to find out here more facts on the process so I am somewhat armed with knowledge before making a claim or suggestion. and no, I have only been talking to the salesman - I have NOT talked to the sales 'manager' - or anyone else higher up. My salesman is nice enough and I want to buy from him, but even I know more about his car than he does - thanks to sites like this an a little web research. so, that will be my next move and I will be doing as you suggest and try to sell it as everyone wins - which is 100% true and I hope they see it that way. stupid wheels could kill or salvage a sale in my case

thanks for clarification... kind of what I guessed, but hoped they could 'override' the system and give me the wheels I want. it seems, we will be at a crossroads then. I do NOT want those chrome clad wheels. period. hate em. no thanks. and yet I cannot get the wheels I want. So, I would have to (1) take the wheels I hate and promptly go 'buy' - spend even more money - the wheels I want and then have those bunk wheels sitting in my garage or (2) buy the SEL just to get the wheels I want and yet not get both Premium and Seating Flexibility packages. why ooooo why cant they let me buy a Limited, order me some SEL wheels I want, put them on for me, credit me the diff between the chrome clad and SEL wheels and resell the chrome clads to someone who likes them but wants them on their SEL as chrome clads are an option on the SEL anyway and some on the lot have the wheels I want and some do not so they would have a set of chrome clads ready to sell or upgrade. pow, done, easy.

I am curious... when you 'Factory Order' a vehicle, is it just like building it on the website like I can do already? or do they actually have more flexibility, discretion to combine options, abilities and items to pick and choose from at the dealership when you build it yourself via the web?

Grey - this all comes up as I do not want the Chrome Clad wheels, but want the 18" premium painted wheels.. BUT it seems they just cannot put those wheels on a Limited as they are SEL wheels... SO, since they do come on a SEL, we instead looked at maybe a SEL loaded just like a Limited so I could get the wheels I want and the bonus was it also devoid of the chrome Beltline, and Limted Badge (and the Chrome Clad wheels of course)... great, as I do not care about those items anyway. this is why the topic even came up. I DO want all of the actual 'features' on the Limited - I want Premium and Seating Flexibility packages - I just hate those plastic wheels and could not care about those 2 other small items above, so a SEL loaded to the hilt to get my wheels and all the options seemed like the way to go. Funny thing is, I am just stunned they cannot give me the SEL wheels I want on the Limited (maybe also credit me the price difference) and we get on with it...

yes, just testing to see if in fact my phone would work as Sync is an awfully cool brick to me if it cannot. So, we just sat in a demo car on the lot and tried to pair my phone, my chicks phone, and his phone. Ours did not, his did, ours Treos, his RAZR. I now wish, despite seeing the connection failed error I would have tried to get or make a call given the Edge in fact had my phone name in it's memory and SYNC screen and my Treo had SYNC. Darn. Might try again. BTW, his sync'd after we tried the 2 Treos and without clearing the Edge SYNC system of our attempts. I like the idea of asking for a discount on the price given I would not be able to use a key piece of technology.

yeah, I always custom build my bikes.. so why not a car. never really occurred to me to try to do so until now. I assumed it was some Jedi mind trick they have me and everyone thinking it must be on the lot or transferred in or no dice. As for the main question, my salesman SWEARS/PROMISIES/KNOWS (so he says) that you can in fact get a SEL with the Premium and Seating Flexibility packages together. He is so sure, he promises it - but will confirm with me tomorrow If so, it would contradict the Ford website, what I was told here, and the manual from the dealer we looked at. He swears dozens of SEL Edges have gone out with the Premium and Seating Flexibility packages. I am leery to be sure and think he is wrong. Hope he is correct, but doubt it as 3 avenues of research say no and only he says yes.

wow.. that REALLY sucks for me.. it seems nutty I cannot just get what I want the way I want it can't figure why both those cannot be in the same car, if they can do it on a Limted and you can do 1 option or the other on a SEL why not both???

It looks like to be on the users forum, you must be a syncmyride.com member - which it seems needs a VIN and I have not purchased my rdie yet... so I cannot get/post to that forum. (or did I miss it?) BUT, you raise kind of an interesting point. When we paired the Treo 650, the Treo found and added 'SYNC' and the Edge's SYNC found my Treo, but when you put in the PIN it gives you is when the SYNC reports 'connection failed'. BUT, the SYNC is still listed in my Treo as a Trusted Source right now and the SYNC - when we went to add the dealers phone as a test - showed my phones BT name in the list of phones already on the Edge. So, I wonder if in fact it was possible to make/receive a call as it showed my phones name on the Edge SYNC and how could it do that if the connection actually failed? would it not have even captured that info from my phone had it no in fact connected? maybe we assumed the connection failed and should have tried it?

So, in talking to the sales guy yesterday.. there are only a few things I do not care about on the Limited that separate it from a fully optioned out SEL (1) Beltline molding (just 1 piece less of chrome for me), (2) the Limited badge (whoooo), and (3) the premium plastic clad chromeish wheels... And, the wheels I do like, the '18" premium painted aluminum' only come on the SEl plus that Beltline piece on the SEL is nice all black. great for me. And, I was told by the salesman - which he is confirming - if I fully loaded it just like a Limited, it should also be cheaper (fleet pricing and base model is cheaper). He tells me I am in the small 10% that actually look at ordering just what they want versus buying a prepackaged model off the lot and because of that, I can get exactly what I want, not what I do not want, and save a little coin. So... am I missing something or does this seem correct? If so, why do more people not slow down and order just what they want?

BTW, I think you mean "slant" cut and not "slash" cut.... I assume 4 1/4 x 3 x 3/4 means 4 1/4 in and 3 x 3/4 out? if not, what is the exhaust inlet size (size opening of your exhaust pipe on the edge or the tip) and the exhaust outlet size (the opening size of the tips you put on)? might find these here: http://www.truckshop.com/home.php?cat=627&...on=0&page=1

First, yes, I know.. it is not on the 'officially' supported list. But, I have seen other phones that were not on 'the list' that do work and it is all BT capable mind you. So, I was in the dealer and checking things out. I tried to pair my phone, and my chicks phone, both are Verizon Treo 650's but with 2 different software versions (1.04 with BT 1.0 and 1.05a with BT 1.1 respectively) and neither worked. We tried 3 times on each. The dealer pulled out a RAZR and SYNC'd it up - first time - and made a phone call. we could not anyone else have success or failure with a Treo 650? This is a real bummer to get a car with this technology and not be able to use it!